41: Making an EPIC 4X game with Preben Møller

Danish game designer and publisher Preben Møller joins me to talk about the long road of creating and publishing his ambitious 4X board game Sky Empire. We discuss how the project evolved over two years of development, the lessons learned from canceling a first crowdfunding campaign, and what changed before launching again successfully. Preben also shares insights into marketing board games, designing meaningful solo modes, gathering honest playtesting feedback, and why designers should decide early whether they want to pitch their games or publish them themselves. 

Transcript

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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:33:21
Speaker 1
Hey I'm Ivan Alexy of and to do with me was Preben, who is a game designer and publisher of a game called Sky Empire. I realize in the episode we jumped straight to game design and publishing, and we didn't get to talk about his game as much as I would have liked. But if you are interested in making a forex game, or if you're interested in playing a forex game, I think Sky Empire is a really good one and it is currently up on game found doing really well.

00:00:33:21 - 00:00:53:06
Speaker 1
It was actually his second time launching. He canceled the first time, which we talked about during the episode and I think he's done a really good job. I'm just so happy to see the game here because I saw it about two years ago when it when he had just started working on it. And it changed so much since then.

00:00:53:06 - 00:01:25:09
Speaker 1
And he's done such a good job not just as a game designer, but so much of it is as a publisher. So I'm sure you're going to enjoy this episode. Thank you so much for listening to. So I just want to ask you, first of all, to like, tell me about what inspired you to make a board game and to start in this pretty long.

00:01:25:09 - 00:01:28:07
Speaker 1
What's been a pretty long journey?

00:01:28:09 - 00:01:48:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great question, actually, because, you know, sometimes it's it comes to you unconsciously, right? And suddenly you are, you are sitting designing something. So. So what started it? I think I think playing a lot of board games of course is, is one way of thinking about if I had made this board game, what would I have made different.

00:01:48:21 - 00:02:16:15
Speaker 2
Right. And from that point on to to start tinkering with something yourself right then then then it begins like that. And, and also like, you know, reading and and liking this sci fi shannara watching sci fi movies and, and of course playing a lot of tie for I love that game and, and it's one of my favorite games to play and I was very inspired by that one as well.

00:02:16:17 - 00:02:45:11
Speaker 2
But I also experienced sometimes that not me myself, I love it, but some of the persons I played with disliked some of the features in the game. So I was thinking about could I make a board game that had the epic ness of tie for but of course make it into something different in its own genre and and fix some of those issues that other players thought the game had.

00:02:45:12 - 00:03:14:03
Speaker 2
So some of the first prototype was a little bit like, you know, a tie for light. And of course, I started protesting that one a lot and got help with it. And from there on, luckily enough, it evolved into its completely own thing. But you can of course see some of the similarities as well, according a compared to t I fall right but but I think it has its own genre now and its own place to stand.

00:03:14:03 - 00:03:16:03
Speaker 2
So. So I'm quite happy with it. So yeah.

00:03:16:07 - 00:03:16:12
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:03:16:12 - 00:03:20:04
Speaker 2
And I think playing games, yeah, mostly inspired me.

00:03:20:06 - 00:03:26:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. When, when was it that you started designing the game or thinking about designing the game?

00:03:26:18 - 00:03:59:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, I started designing this game in November 24, but I was old, so it's like what is in the website was November. Actually 23, I think. So I've been at it for over two years with this particular game and but I started designing board games further back, you know, making some different games that I ended up ditching because I had like first off, I was very into Sire, you know, that one, you know?

00:03:59:11 - 00:04:03:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, I know what, I haven't actually played it, but I know it. Yeah.

00:04:03:02 - 00:04:31:15
Speaker 2
And that was very, you know, like I was maybe into the sandbox theme of things and I really like playing, you know, computer games, like, don't stop the shipwrecked version. And, and Victoria, you know, those big sandbox games out there. And I was thinking about Sire and. And how could I make this gigantic. Yeah. This gigantic sandbox of a sci fi game.

00:04:31:17 - 00:05:02:15
Speaker 2
A little bit like you were playing Eve online. Maybe. So it, well, really huge. And I started designing that and I got to around I think we had 1500 different cards and and and then I realized this is not going to work. This is this is too complex, right? Because you had you had quests and you had you had pieces and you could set up mining stations and it was it was so crazy and so big and it was a lot of cards.

00:05:02:15 - 00:05:19:12
Speaker 2
And, and I, I got a little bit fed up with it and put that one on the shelf and walked away from board. Game designing for some time until I started designing this game and another game I'm working on. So so that's that's a brief story.

00:05:19:12 - 00:05:39:19
Speaker 1
Yeah perfect for, for, for people listening. The game is called Sky Empire and should still be up on game found when when this goes live and it's actually it's your second time launching. could you tell me about like what went wrong I guess in the first one or what you're hearing So.

00:05:39:20 - 00:06:06:01
Speaker 2
That's this is a great thing to talk about because I probably imagine many of your listeners is going to be board game designers themselves. And I truly have a lot of insights on feeling the first time and, you know, making mistakes. We all make mistakes and it's how we deal with them that that actually met us, right? Because a mistake can be turned into something very positive.

00:06:06:03 - 00:06:33:11
Speaker 2
So so I have pinned down a lot of things that I think was very important. First off, I didn't want to use stretch goals. I wanted just one glitch. You know, the big gigantic glitch for everything in the game, a very deluxe version. And that's what people often end up buying. For example, right now, the biggest pledge of the game right now is the one that has been chosen a lot like 40%, I think.

00:06:33:12 - 00:06:57:06
Speaker 2
So that's what people want most of the time, right? But they also want the ability to choose it or choose something else. So. So that was a mistake. I should have made more pledge levels to make the entry level a bit lower and pulled out, you know, some of the miniatures because they have a lot of miniatures, which gives a lot of molds which increase increased the cost of the game by a lot.

00:06:57:08 - 00:07:16:12
Speaker 2
So instead of putting them all in from the beginning, I should have made them stretch goals to make it more sustainable. And and make the funding go lower because people will look a lot into that funding goal. If you don't fund in the first day, you're basically most of the time dead in the water, in my opinion. Right.

00:07:16:12 - 00:07:44:05
Speaker 2
And I didn't fund the first day, so I, I struggled a lot and trying to gain momentum and, and people were very nice and trying to help. But it's very hard if you don't fund fast. So that's that's the first take on this. You need to to have different pledge levels and make an entry level price so that you will get a lot of backers that can access the game in a in a cheap in a cheap way.

00:07:44:05 - 00:08:14:22
Speaker 2
And that's that's one of the things another thing was I had quite a lot of follow ups. I think actually I had around six, 6000 followers, which is very good, I think. And that made me stop all marketing just at launch because you pay extra if, if you have like found on which I used, you will pay 5% extra when you launch the game and people click on a mirror and go to your game and back.

00:08:15:00 - 00:08:36:22
Speaker 2
So I thought, you know, I have all the followers I need so I can just, you know, stop marketing right away when I launch and just, you know, support myself with all these followers. And that was, I think, mistake number two, right? So so I should have just kept the marketing going, kept the ads going, kept on board, game keep.

00:08:37:00 - 00:08:55:02
Speaker 2
And that's I'll just throw in a little advice here. Again, I'm a first time creator. So so take it with a grain of salt. But I also researched a lot and and talked to a lot of people. And the best ads you can get is in media ads, right? That's that's probably the best way to spend your marketing budget.

00:08:55:02 - 00:09:23:08
Speaker 2
And the second best thing, in my opinion, is body geek. And you shouldn't really you shouldn't really worry about the rest. Then you need some organic marketing as well, of course. But that's, that's mistake number two we made here. So it's a long list of the if I can remember everything but it but but not having marketing a campaign running during the campaign and during the launch especially, you want to you want to hit the ground running at launch.

00:09:23:08 - 00:09:42:18
Speaker 2
So you need you need a marketing plan, a solid marketing plan, and it's going to cost you, I'm going to say a lot of money, but at least some money. I because even if you made the you made the best game in the world, if you don't market that game, you won't fund it. So you need you need marketing.

00:09:42:18 - 00:10:10:13
Speaker 2
That's a bit harsh, but that's that's the reality right now because a lot of games are coming out and it will drown in all the game launches. So that's another thing. And I want to add also that I made a lot of the graphics on the page myself, the graphics designs of the page. And I can see now when I go back and look at it compared to what my skill set are now, it's a little bit better.

00:10:10:15 - 00:10:37:05
Speaker 2
I can see that the graphics of the page matter a lot because and people when people like in tested, you know, help me, help me look through the page. The first one they couldn't put a finger on it really but they said something like it's is something wrong. I think because it's hard to say that maybe the fonts don't they don't align or there is something about the colors.

00:10:37:10 - 00:10:57:08
Speaker 2
But that's that's not something people necessarily can see conscious and it's going on in your unconscious mind. So so you need great graphic designs on your page and you need testimonials if you have them. Also tend to like the tell tale the game has been played.

00:10:57:10 - 00:10:57:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:10:57:17 - 00:10:59:16
Speaker 2
Good translation that it's working.

00:10:59:18 - 00:11:02:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:11:02:09 - 00:11:08:08
Speaker 2
So that's, that's at least some of the things I have from the top of my mind.

00:11:08:10 - 00:11:13:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like you've done a really good job.

00:11:13:05 - 00:11:19:17
Speaker 2
I, I have a complete list I can look through all of you while you are pedaling away.

00:11:19:19 - 00:11:38:18
Speaker 1
You know, that would be great, because I feel like you actually, like, took the lessons. And you can see it in the second campaign, though. You funded in under an hour, I think 40 minutes. You're currently at over like double the goal at least and.

00:11:38:20 - 00:11:40:18
Speaker 2
340% actually. Yeah.

00:11:40:18 - 00:11:49:05
Speaker 1
Okay. Very good. Even more so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm sure it's even more by the time the the episode comes out.

00:11:49:07 - 00:12:19:22
Speaker 2
Another small thing I can add another small thing if you want to. It's also like to have some meaningful add ons that people can add to their pledge. It's not going to like, it's not going to make or break if you're fund or not. It's not vital, but it will help you a lot to, you know, increase the basket size of the buyer because maybe you have a new bring that right for €25 or you have some deluxe resources.

00:12:19:22 - 00:12:46:22
Speaker 2
People love them for like €20 and suddenly people, you know, have added like 50, €60 to their basket when buying the game. And this will help you a lot with the overall with the overall goal of the game. So so if you if it needs to be meaningful, of course, and be something that makes sense for the game but but add ons to the deluxe find the game is a great thing I think.

00:12:47:00 - 00:12:53:16
Speaker 1
Yeah yeah yeah. Basically giving giving people options Yeah yeah.

00:12:53:18 - 00:13:25:20
Speaker 2
And the funding goal also I, I my first campaign I had a funding goal of €100,000 and, and, and that's a lot but that's what it took me to bring that game to the table and as a minimum funding now this time around I have like streamlined the game and this means my funding goal is 40,000. So I managed to to lower it by a lot and I did that and how I did that was I cut out some of the unique modes.

00:13:25:22 - 00:13:48:02
Speaker 2
So actually the gameplay is almost entirely the same as the first campaign. But instead I've had I think I had in the first campaign, I had like 49 different miniature models and that's insane amount of miniature models. So I needed this large funding goal and now I managed to group some of the minis together and just make name tags for them.

00:13:48:04 - 00:14:21:14
Speaker 2
And this brought the total unique miniatures down to like I think 22, So less than half of that, which helped me lower the funding goal by a lot. And then if you really want a lot of different miniatures, just make them stretch goals. So it's like they're going in the game anyways. But you just made the funding go lower, so you're just like thinking smarter and maybe the game in the final stage is going to be exactly the same as the first game, but the second game is the one that that's kind of fun, right?

00:14:21:14 - 00:14:37:10
Speaker 2
Because it has the lower funding goal and added funded quickly and people will. We'll get all the stretch goals with all the different miniatures in any way. Right? So, so it's just to work smarter, not harder. I'm going to to use that quote here.

00:14:37:12 - 00:14:55:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. And you how did you decide also to to become a publisher instead of like in the future, Do you plan on great the publisher routes more or game design.

00:14:55:14 - 00:15:23:14
Speaker 2
Yeah yeah I am I think I really like also the publishing part and that's that's another advice I'm just going to rambling on. So you just going to trust me? That's another advice before you stop even thinking about a board game design. My advice would also be you need to figure out, do you want to pitch this game or do I want to be a publisher yourself?

00:15:23:16 - 00:15:58:16
Speaker 2
Because from a game design perspective, those two parts, in my opinion, again, I'm a first time creator, so just my opinion, those two path are going to be very different because if you want to be the publisher, you're going to work a lot on that. On that aspect of making a game, right? I think right now I'm probably also before the campaign launched, I think I'd spent 10% of my time developing the game and 90% of the time being the publisher.

00:15:58:18 - 00:16:29:03
Speaker 2
So if you are really in love with board game design but not the publishing part, you should definitely pitch the game. But I really like, you know, I'm I have some in my day job as well, some responsibilities. And I really like, you know, running a company, driving a company, trying to make sales and all aspects of this, talking to manufacturers in China and other publishers for localization and and also having full control over my own game.

00:16:29:05 - 00:16:57:08
Speaker 2
I knew exactly how I wanted it to look and how I wanted it to play. And you lose some of that. Of course, if you if you pitched the game to another publisher and they eventually decide on a lot of stuff. And I also think the best economic way, it's also a bit unsure to be the publisher, right, Because you never know what you are standing with the build yourself if if something goes wrong.

00:16:57:10 - 00:17:25:10
Speaker 2
But I think potentially this is the best economic way of board game design. I think this will lend you the most profit, but also you're going to spend like eight, ten times as much time on a game. Yeah, if you just pitched it right, it's it's huge to just setting up a campaign, you know, and figuring out everything on the back end of the game found that taxes, you know, how do I fulfill this game?

00:17:25:10 - 00:17:31:00
Speaker 2
Who's going to deliver it? What what factory I'm going to use in China, stuff like that.

00:17:31:06 - 00:17:31:20
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:17:31:22 - 00:18:01:23
Speaker 2
That's that's a publishers business, right? So, so I really like both aspects of it. And I like to have full control over my game. And I, I really like both, but I think you need to figure that out early in the process when you design a board game so you don't spend a ton of money on, on ads and sculpting minis as I did or graphic design, because a publisher is not going to pay you for that.

00:18:01:23 - 00:18:14:19
Speaker 2
He's going to change it even maybe so. So think about that before before you you go too far with the board game design. What are your opinions on that? I would actually agree on that.

00:18:14:19 - 00:18:46:12
Speaker 1
I absolutely agree. Yeah. I mean, for for one thing, I find that you've you've done something that's typically, I think wouldn't be like the the advice people give to people, which is, well, for one thing you've got a giant forex game that costs to create requires a lot of work, a lot of custom pieces. And this is for a very niche audience, like an audience that can sit down and understand all of these mechanism and niche with passionate audience.

00:18:46:12 - 00:19:22:02
Speaker 1
You know? Which is correct. Yeah, but it's definitely I've thought about going down the publisher route before and, and have made some, some attempts and I realize how much how much work goes into it. But I think the question people want to ask themselves is, you know, one of the great things to me and I am much more focused on design and development because typically I work with publishers to help develop their games.

00:19:22:04 - 00:19:41:00
Speaker 1
But like you see a lot of one of the best things about game design is that you can be really prolific with it. And if you have a look at like your favorite game designers that design games and pitch them to publishers, you know, it's a normal thing for you to see three or four titles come out in a single year, which which isn't the case.

00:19:41:00 - 00:19:49:18
Speaker 1
Like, you know, for, let's say, authors of books, you're not going to see somebody with no coming out with four books a year or so. Yeah.

00:19:49:22 - 00:20:15:19
Speaker 2
Yeah that's, that's, that's exactly I think that's spot on if you're really if you're passionate about only the game design part of aspect of it, then you definitely should should just pitch the games and you will you'll maybe have a big catalog you know of games that you have that you have created and you can pitch like different games to a publisher and maybe they will pick up one of them and another publisher will pick up another one of them.

00:20:15:21 - 00:20:29:19
Speaker 2
So so of course, if you build up this catalog, you will have better you will have great chances of success going that way. So. So yeah, important to figure out what do you want to do with it.

00:20:29:21 - 00:20:48:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. Also another kind of difficult thing that I'm sure you went through is like when you have just like everything relying on one project because it's a I mean, one, one of the difficult things in being a publisher is that you're, you're taking on all of the risk, which is you're putting in a lot of money before before the game goes up for for everything.

00:20:48:20 - 00:21:20:19
Speaker 1
But also like I have in working on a lot of projects, you know, often what can happen is you can like really get stuck with with certain aspects or, you know, to me, yeah, I find it really useful to be able to jump from project to project. Well, it must be really difficult, especially, you know, when you've had the first campaign that didn't fund and that, that you canceled.

00:21:20:21 - 00:21:33:01
Speaker 1
How did you keep yourself kind of motivated to keep keep working on the game and, you know, still still be passionate about the game after, you know, spending a lot of time on just that single. Yeah.

00:21:33:06 - 00:21:58:17
Speaker 2
Yeah that's that's a great question. You know, it's it's a bit weird, right, because I'm so attached to this game that even, you know, failing it never, it never crossed my mind to, to, to, to ditch it and leave it and, and run. Right. It never crossed my mind once. And that's because I feel so attached to the game.

00:21:58:17 - 00:22:15:19
Speaker 2
And, you know, I'm like, I'm not like a guy that has a lot of hobbies. You know, I'm I'm interested in one thing. And then I move on to another thing and then I fish and then I maybe going to both or something, you know. But this game, you know, is sort of like attached to me like a part of my body.

00:22:15:21 - 00:22:49:15
Speaker 2
So so I'm I think I'm stuck with it for the rest of my life. So I'm I'm, I'm marching on with this game, right. But for the rest of my life. So that was that was actually a weird feeling and also a little bit scary, actually, because it made me sound a little bit overdramatic. Right? But I felt like this was my child and I had to I had to make this child survive also, because a lot of a lot of people actually were really supportive and really wanted the game right.

00:22:49:15 - 00:23:09:01
Speaker 2
Maybe a smaller group of superfans, like 100, 200 people. And they really, really, really cheered me on and wanted me to make the game. That also, of course, meant a lot to me. But but I think it's the emotional attachment to the game now. It has been such a big part of my life for for two or three years, right?

00:23:09:01 - 00:23:21:17
Speaker 2
So it never crossed my mind to to dump it and and move on. Yeah. So, so I wanted to keep working on it. I wanted to keep improve it until I succeeded with it.

00:23:21:19 - 00:23:24:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:24:02 - 00:23:52:21
Speaker 2
Well yeah, that's the main thing. I also, I also I, I am, I remember other stuff, if that's okay. Another great tip is No, no, your offer before launching. So I had I had like a vague idea of how solo mode was going to be. And actually all the way in the beginning of the campaign, when I launched the preview, I said there were not going to be a solo mode, and a lot of people asked for solo mode.

00:23:52:21 - 00:24:16:15
Speaker 2
And then I started designing it and it came too close to launch. So I had sort of like vague ideas about the solo mode. And I think that also made people wary about the project because I was a little bit vague about how it would play. And now I have spent the last year or so designing the solo modes for the game.

00:24:16:15 - 00:24:52:10
Speaker 2
So I have a much clearer idea and I can showcase it to people. And I have had YouTubers play the solo, you know, so, so other people can see it getting played. So I have a much clearer idea on it. And that's, that's one thing that designers need to to have in the back of their head is that this solo, I think the group of solo players out there are people that plays solo board games, is growing and they are very vocal about their ideas and they are really loving playing solo board games, right?

00:24:52:12 - 00:25:15:13
Speaker 2
So if your design makes room for it, it's a great idea to spend time, design some time designing a great solo mode and not just something that you staple on the game, something that that feels unique and feels like it was. It was made for a solo game and not just, you know, something that was put in at the last minute.

00:25:15:15 - 00:25:35:13
Speaker 2
So a solo mode, I think can be very important. Of course, you can make it game without solo modes, but this is all things that will help you succeed with the game if you have some great way of playing it solo. And also you need a very clear, you need a very clear path and standpoint on different languages.

00:25:35:13 - 00:26:03:18
Speaker 2
I made a mistake there as well, saying like this is only going to be English. And of course the comments were like, What about Polish? What about French? What about a lot of Germans actually really love the game also ideas. And so they asked a lot from German version and I needed I should have had a more clear plan on languages I just stick to the English version or have a plan to involve other publishers.

00:26:03:20 - 00:26:30:17
Speaker 2
So so that's also something that that board game designers, if they are going to launch an online campaign, a campaign, they need to figure out a clear standpoint on on languages. How are we going to approach that? Luckily, now I have some I have some partners now to play games that will help me fulfill the game so I can manage I can manage a lot of stuff keeping units, you know, I can manage if I have a lot of of different stuff and I have them.

00:26:30:22 - 00:26:53:11
Speaker 2
Then government pitches the game to to publishers in other languages. And I also have my, my own translators that I have talked to A s and you know, so I have them, I have them in my back hand so I can I can pull them in. If the language stretch goals are met. For example, right now the German stretch goal is actually met.

00:26:53:11 - 00:27:14:00
Speaker 2
More than 100 German people have bought the game and I'm already like starting to put the files for the German translator that I met at Essen. So I have a clear plan for for the languages now, so you don't have to alter a lot during a campaign. You need you need to have these things figured out before launch.

00:27:14:02 - 00:27:19:10
Speaker 2
And that was also one of the many mistakes I made in the press campaign.

00:27:19:12 - 00:27:20:04
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:27:20:06 - 00:27:21:02
Speaker 2
The list is long.

00:27:21:02 - 00:27:30:01
Speaker 1
Sorry, I'm really happy to go through the list. Tell me about about how you approached the solo mode.

00:27:30:03 - 00:27:54:08
Speaker 2
Yes. So I first it's it's a it's a difficult thing, actually, because I have played some solo games. Of course, I have played like sides and I also play numerous awards once in a while. But other than that, I mostly play, you know, with multiplayer, I play with more players. So so a lot of people know a lot more about solo games than I do.

00:27:54:10 - 00:28:04:17
Speaker 2
So of course asking a little bit around and having people play the solo mode and forex, you don't I don't think you see a lot of forex solo modes.

00:28:04:17 - 00:28:06:20
Speaker 1
No, you actually that's why I mean.

00:28:06:22 - 00:28:32:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And that. So that's interesting, right? This is a, this is an opportunity to know, you know, just to find a market that's not, that's sort of free. And luckily for me the game design already included you know NPC ships evil NPC that you would fight in in multiplayer. So of course it made perfect sense to like alter the map a bit and make it like a one on one.

00:28:32:00 - 00:29:10:04
Speaker 2
So you play against the Sentinel, the Sentinels of the game and they already move during events and different events happen that that make them spawn and that whether it's good or bad, something like that. So it was actually not that difficult to to alter it into into the first solo mode. That's called Doom Operation Spearhead and because I could just made you make made some mechanisms that simulated other players on the counting board so you would sometimes get blocked out of the options you wanted on the council, but otherwise than that you were just playing against the Sentinels.

00:29:10:04 - 00:29:32:20
Speaker 2
And of course they were playing a little bit differently when in solo mode. And this is a great, you know, like I would say, it's like a training mode, a good training mode if you want to know the game or you want to you want to, you know, toy around with different topless, topless other characters in the game, the different factions and try them.

00:29:32:20 - 00:29:58:09
Speaker 2
How do they feel to play. And I'm also quite far with with another version now called in the skin of a snake where you play against a you know, a robot Doppler and the sentinels at the same time, Right. So suddenly you are like playing against an automatic also. And that's also quite far. And I will reveal more about it during the campaign and show the first rounds a bit.

00:29:58:11 - 00:30:19:00
Speaker 2
So but but how do you approach it? That's a great question. I think I've just started, you know, putting down things and saying how what would make this interesting? How would The Sentinel move to make this interesting and unpredictable? Because I think all players hate if it gets predictable, yeah, it needs to be unpredictable. They need to have like challenges.

00:30:19:01 - 00:30:40:10
Speaker 2
And I think also that people that place all about games are awesome. They can be quite skilled board game. So you don't you, you need to not make it too easy for them because they are very skilled. They play a lot of board games, many solo players because they can play anytime, right? They don't need, they don't need a group for it.

00:30:40:12 - 00:31:01:09
Speaker 2
So they maybe play a lot more board games than the rest of us. So they need they need the challenge, right? They need to. And also, you know, if you make this almost be transparent about what it is like, don't try to oversell it, saying like you will have hundreds of hours of play time that this all about be honest about it right.

00:31:01:09 - 00:31:22:02
Speaker 2
If you can play it like ten times that's that's a lot and and it still feels fresh after ten placed and then say that instead of like 500 hours of solo play you know, something like that because it's not sustainable to have people buy the game and hating it, you need to make a game that's that's good also for the solo players.

00:31:22:04 - 00:31:25:08
Speaker 2
Otherwise don't don't, don't put it in.

00:31:25:10 - 00:31:30:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. A bad solo mode is worse than no. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:30:23 - 00:31:32:07
Speaker 2
I think you are right. Yeah.

00:31:32:10 - 00:31:53:18
Speaker 1
Well a lot of I know a lot of people just want they want it to say 1 to 4 one. What, like starting at one on the books. Yeah. Yeah. Some games even starting at zero. But yeah, you know without a phase facing against each other. But but yeah, it's, it's definitely. And I really love that you made multiple solo modes, not just one.

00:31:53:21 - 00:32:29:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like adding, adding more for, for solo players and, and by the sounds of it I, I the types of solo modes I like most are the ones where you kind of, you replicate the interaction where it is, which is on the board like you said them blocking you. Yeah but also it's really difficult with or at least it sounds difficult, you know, in a forex game because you've got that area control and that it, it should feel like a challenge, like what you said about, yeah.

00:32:29:21 - 00:32:50:06
Speaker 1
So the modes being needing to be challenging, I think it's not even just, it's a little gamers are skilled. I think when you want to, when you want players to enjoy a solo or a co-op, it's so much nicer for it to be challenging so that you feel like you're you overcome the challenge, You know, if.

00:32:50:07 - 00:32:50:16
Speaker 2
They take.

00:32:50:17 - 00:33:22:00
Speaker 1
It. If a co-op game is too easy and I've heard somewhere, I think it may be Matt Leacock maybe, but one of the designers of Pandemic Legacy, I think it was him. He said that he's Amy. He was aiming for like 70% loss rates in a co-op game. So like you do want to have more of the time for, for players to, to lose rather than win.

00:33:22:02 - 00:33:53:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah of course Yeah It's interesting right. One of the things that that helped me here, I, I think is that the map tiles you know that it's a very simple thing but all my map tiles they have numbers because so they have a number from 1 to 32 because that's how movement is programed. So you might draw a sentinel card saying this one will move towards the closest player following a path of the lowest tile numbers, for example.

00:33:53:18 - 00:34:22:19
Speaker 2
But this little, little system is actually great for for solo play, right? Because I can make a deck of robot that moves for a higher tile numbers or lower tile numbers or specific tiles like volcano islands. And then I can make a different mission where the map is built differently. So you're actually using exactly the same deck, maybe with small alterations, maybe.

00:34:22:21 - 00:34:47:05
Speaker 2
But the the robot will move very differently because the map is laid out in another way. So you can actually make him like race towards the point or you can make him race towards the player or you can make him like stay in his own slice and be very defensive with how you program the movement because the tiles are moved for each map.

00:34:47:07 - 00:35:10:20
Speaker 2
Or you can make him move more aggressively and stuff like that. So that's actually like some layers that that fit well into my game just because I have different tile types and different tile numbers. So I can use the same deck for different builds to make it interesting. And also, of course, you need you need more things than, than just altering the map.

00:35:11:00 - 00:35:32:19
Speaker 2
But this will help a lot because you can it will feel very different sometimes you will feel maybe aggressive because he's moving towards low tile numbers and you are your home base is on another tile number. Right. So he's racing towards you, right. Fighting you and other games. He is just thing to defend his own life, racing, racing to get the crystals before you.

00:35:32:21 - 00:35:39:11
Speaker 2
So that's actually a very interesting, interesting feature and that I'm going to use a lot.

00:35:39:13 - 00:36:02:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned you mentioned going to Essen because you tell me about kind of how you found the, you know, the biggest board game convention in the world and what it was useful for. Did you find it was it was worth it for you as a, you know as a publisher and.

00:36:02:12 - 00:36:37:08
Speaker 2
Yeah yeah, yeah that's, that's a great question. I first time and first time I was at Essen was in 24 so, so two years back and I we went to see me and my wife because I was already designing the game and I wanted to have, you know, a booth and last year and 25. So I went there to, to, you know, to buy it, to get inspiration for a different booth and see what what people did to, to try to attract the crowd and to showcase the game.

00:36:37:10 - 00:37:06:02
Speaker 2
And and I got some great contacts, actually, by talking to two other first time designers. I talked to the guys behind it, Bantam West, a great, great Western themed game. I really like what they are doing and they have made sort of like an all in booth with, you know, Western theme and you had a calendar and they had to go buy it, go buy clothes on, and it was really cool.

00:37:06:08 - 00:37:16:02
Speaker 1
He actually I talked with with like from Bantam West a couple of weeks ago and he said that they won an award. I don't know if it was that year or the next one for the best Booth.

00:37:16:12 - 00:37:36:20
Speaker 2
yeah, That's no surprise to me because it was, it was great. Yeah. And also, I got to talk with the the guy behind the game called Iron Core, and they actually also gave me some valuable insights. And they were the reason that I got in contact with Vanguard actually did the localization problem.

00:37:36:22 - 00:37:37:10
Speaker 1
And that's.

00:37:37:12 - 00:37:38:16
Speaker 2
Finding other publishers.

00:37:38:21 - 00:37:41:18
Speaker 1
People listening. That's people on board. Vanguard.

00:37:41:20 - 00:38:08:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So that was 24. I went down there and then then of course, we had the campaign in May 25 and they canceled it. I keep saying failed, but actually I canceled it myself because I could see we didn't reach the funding goal. And that's, that's better than failing, actually. I think cancel it yourself and rebuild and but that's another thing.

00:38:08:03 - 00:38:24:06
Speaker 2
But but but we canceled the campaign in May and I had already ordered the booth essence and it's quite expensive My my booth was say €2,000 and that's just the booth and of course that gets a lot of stuff added to that parking and.

00:38:24:11 - 00:38:26:09
Speaker 1
Furniture as well.

00:38:26:11 - 00:38:44:18
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And one of them, of course, my luggage that we live in Denmark, so we have like a ten hour drive to Essen. So it's possible for us. We rented, you know, a Big Ben to have all the furniture in. But renting furniture at Essen is really expensive. Yeah. Electricity is really expensive.

00:38:44:21 - 00:38:56:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. When, when. Because I've had a booth twice in Essen and I remember we decided to buy furniture instead of renting because it turned out cheaper.

00:38:56:16 - 00:39:19:18
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's, that's crazy that actually cheaper. Also people buy, you know carpets. Yeah. Because it's way cheaper than renting it and they just leave it there. So that's I think that should they should know what the price but that's another that's not conversation. So so we canceled and of course the economics was not great because I had put a lot of money into the game and I also rented the booth.

00:39:19:18 - 00:39:41:21
Speaker 2
So I was thinking about canceling the booth. But, but we got to August and the cancellation fee was 100%. So so I thought, you know, I'm stuck with this game. I'm going to I'm going to publish this game no matter what. So we might as well go to S and set up the booth and go through with it.

00:39:42:02 - 00:40:04:13
Speaker 2
And I'm really happy I did that because I got a lot of a lot of positive feedback, a lot of people that really liked the game. Also some suggestions that I haven't thought of and a lot of buzz around the game. I think we had like, yeah, I think it was 500 or 600 newsletter sign up for this for this event here this weekend.

00:40:04:15 - 00:40:29:07
Speaker 2
So, so that was great also. But most importantly, I think the connections that you make, it's the most important part of participating in. For example, the German translator I mentioned earlier, that's a guy that had a booth beside us and he liked the game and came over for a chat and talked about how he had translated all the games into German.

00:40:29:09 - 00:40:54:14
Speaker 2
So and yeah, made connections with that first, the first manufacturer also there. And as I said, my Ben Garland and a lot of other designers that you know, that cheer for each other and publishers that try to help each other. So that's that's really something I think you should the goal should be not to to sell a lot of games.

00:40:54:16 - 00:41:25:19
Speaker 2
Your goal should be to make connections and and talk to people and it will be a success. I think sometimes it can be hard if your only goal is to sell a lot of the games and you need to bring a profit home from it, That can be quite difficult, I think, but you should more see it like a long term, long term investment into the community and into making some some good connection connections and also give something back to other publishers, maybe to all the creators or to the audience of your game.

00:41:25:21 - 00:41:35:10
Speaker 2
So so that should be the purpose, in my opinion, unless you have like a huge, huge party game or something like that, then you might turn a profit.

00:41:35:12 - 00:42:08:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's definitely, I mean, I think a big part of it, especially with like you, with, with out having as many people like physically see the game, I think it's really, it can be really encouraging. I recently talked with another publisher who told me they went to Genco for the first, their first convention and they had, people play their game for the first time or just like them watch random people play the game for the first time.

00:42:08:16 - 00:42:23:10
Speaker 1
And when they came back they said like all doubts that they had beforehand of like, should this game exist? Is this game good enough? Kind of vanished when they saw actual people, you know, enjoying it? I think that's the case for for a lot of people.

00:42:23:12 - 00:42:58:18
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And and you know people just make as many as many play just as you can. Now, this was difficult for me because it is a huge forex game and it it takes between two and 6 hours to play depending on player count. And and also you need the rules teach right so I could I had to I had to play test each day with four and they were like booked two month in advance so but those play tests are very valuable because maybe four or five people will go to board game to rate the game, maybe eight or ten.

00:42:58:20 - 00:43:18:07
Speaker 2
And so you played at IS and it was fun. This was this was the case with the game and they will also follow and game found maybe comment on your campaign and all this makes people believe that the game is going to really exist because some persons walked up to the booth in essence and played it and liked the game.

00:43:18:09 - 00:43:55:12
Speaker 2
So they are not biased in any way. They are just at essence and trying a lot of different games. So this one, this will plant seeds into into people that they will know that this is a physical game. It has existed and people have walked up, played it and liked it. So that's that's also an aspect that's very important for a small publisher like me or a one man company, maybe not so important for all the very big companies, but for me it's very important because trust is hard to build for a first time creator.

00:43:55:12 - 00:44:25:10
Speaker 2
And that's, of course, because so many things has gone wrong in the past with with other campaigns. So so you need to build some trust and you're build that by putting the game out there and having people playing it and seeing the game actually works. And we have seen the components and they look great. Yeah, Yeah. So that's also, that's also one thing you can lean into if you have a booth and you have the space for it, definitely make as many plates and you as you can muster.

00:44:25:12 - 00:44:52:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, Yeah. That's, that's I think super, super useful if you can, if you can do it just any places, especially with people who are like part of you're the target audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also like not biased you know, not your friends who you play, you know, Twilight Imperium was but at random people who love Twilight and period.

00:44:52:01 - 00:44:52:18
Speaker 1
Yes.

00:44:52:20 - 00:45:20:03
Speaker 2
Exactly. And this is also the people that's going to give you the most honest feedback and you need honest feedback. You need honest feedback to make a decent game. You cannot survive by just having your mom play your game and saying it's great. Yeah, you need you need honest feedback in order to improve it. And also I would also highlight you actually, Ivan, if that's okay, and your team at the player layer, you jump in quite early.

00:45:20:03 - 00:45:40:00
Speaker 2
Actually, maybe it was a bit too early, but this is my first game, you know? Yeah, So, so I was just thinking, cool, professional playtest. Let's see what, what they think. And I hired your and your team and, and you're like, you know, you're, you're paid to bring me honest feedback. So. So I'm going to get honest feedback, right?

00:45:40:01 - 00:46:06:23
Speaker 2
And, and that was actually great because it made me change some vital things of the game. Yeah, from from there, from from the feedback I got from you and your team and you made you made a video feedback for me and also like written feedback and, and that was amazing, right? Because if there were some problems with the game, you were going to mention it because that's your job, right?

00:46:06:23 - 00:46:34:03
Speaker 2
So. So you're not of course we we are now good friends also. But but in this case you are right. You are going to give me honest feedback because because you are paid to do that. Right. So yeah, so every issue is going to come up and you can decide whether or not you are going to to to hand to handle this issue or you can it's if it's a design that you intended to be like that, that's of course perfectly fine.

00:46:34:03 - 00:46:55:05
Speaker 2
If this is the game, if this is how you wanted the game, because you cannot listen to all feedback and you will never really finish your game and it will be very bad if you try to bring on all feedback. But but listen to to honest feedback from people that don't that don't know you. That's a very important part of designing a board game.

00:46:55:07 - 00:47:26:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's definitely a big part of it. And then deciding like because is often actually like some advice I given in the past is also like sometimes you just need to ignore parts of the feedback. I still think it's really useful to, to get it, you know, because it's so much nicer. Like I've had like in my sort of work as a play tester and in giving feedback, I've had, you know, there's a lot of people who find it difficult to handle.

00:47:26:10 - 00:47:37:16
Speaker 1
And you know, though, yeah, so we'll have, you know, but kind of my the way I see it is like I do need to be honest.

00:47:38:11 - 00:47:39:18
Speaker 2
yeah, with it.

00:47:39:20 - 00:48:04:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. But yeah, being able to, to just decide. Yeah. What do you want to implement? What, Like just knowing it. I think it's so useful to know it before the game goes into print, you know, because it's, it's so much different if, like, the game goes into print and then you start getting reviews, that's better saying, well, this is very unfair, you know, like this type of interaction and so on.

00:48:04:20 - 00:48:24:18
Speaker 2
And another I will highlight another important thing if are giving you feedback. That's genuinely because they care about the game and they care about you, so they are not trying to attack you or maybe they are not. Yeah. Articulating it very well, but they are actually caring about you and caring about the game and that's why they give you feedback.

00:48:24:20 - 00:48:46:08
Speaker 2
If, for example, if a guy I'm to write about your game, this looks like type for I'm not sure it's worth it. Then he's actually he writes that because he's interested in the game. Yeah some some part of him actually really wants to like the game but he just think it looks a little bit like, All right, so.

00:48:46:08 - 00:49:06:21
Speaker 2
So what do you do? You jump in and give him some constructive thoughts on the matter without attacking the guy because he's he's really interested in your in your game. Yeah. He's just not convinced by it by the design yet So so take take feedback as people helping you actually and it's not an attack on you on the game.

00:49:06:23 - 00:49:09:19
Speaker 2
Yeah it's just people trying to help you genuinely.

00:49:10:00 - 00:49:37:01
Speaker 1
Yeah absolutely. And it's like the those people, they don't like, most people don't think about it as much as you do, so they're giving you kind of a first impression or something that you've lost sight of. And yeah, it's, it's you also, I think, need to put yourself in their shoes that that's just something that they see.

00:49:37:01 - 00:49:56:11
Speaker 1
And they also see your game next to Twilight Imperium or like next to, you know, and a week in Rome's like campaign that Yeah you know Yeah however many millions of of you know and and they you know they're choosing to back your game by.

00:49:56:13 - 00:50:21:02
Speaker 2
Saying exactly so so any kind of feedback is valuable I would say yeah of course maybe once in a million years some guy will walk up to you saying something just to hurt you. But that's almost never the case. People are giving you, giving your feedback to help you, and it will be very helpful if you listen to us to it doesn't mean you have to follow it, but listen to it.

00:50:21:02 - 00:50:43:16
Speaker 2
And knowing why is he why is this guy saying this? What part of the game play made him say this? But you don't have to follow all feedback, of course, because that's that will be difficult and wrong also. But listen to it, right. For example, a quick example is a guy, you know, most almost all players and isn't really like the game.

00:50:43:18 - 00:51:15:06
Speaker 2
And I had sometimes troubles to get people to leave the game in order to set it up for the next latest. Even though they have played for like 3 hours and isn't. And also they should go watch on a game, right? But I couldn't get them to leave because they were invested in the game. But also one guy like he really didn't like the game when he was playing it and he said like, well, I think this this game would be great without all that combat or without the NPC or something that, you know, I don't want to fight.

00:51:15:08 - 00:51:37:13
Speaker 2
And I'm thinking, thank you for your feedback, but this is a forex game. Fighting is going to be part of the final project. Yeah. So maybe this this game is not for you. So. So advice. Listen to all feedback. But of course don't, don't follow anything but listen to it closely and try to analyze why am I getting this feedback now?

00:51:37:15 - 00:51:44:08
Speaker 2
What part of the game or my behavior also made me made me receive that kind of feedback.

00:51:44:10 - 00:52:10:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that was very useful. I think what the what you said about what part of my behavior, what part of the game or the design made people react to it in this way. And you know, if one person's reacting to it this way, it's likely that there will be a group of those people on a similar kind of a who, who have similar feelings or thoughts towards.

00:52:11:00 - 00:52:26:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's a great point. He he represents a part of the ball game community. Maybe so so you need to you need to to think about that carefully and maybe you don't need to follow, but you need to think him as a representative. That's a great point. I actually. Yeah.

00:52:26:17 - 00:52:52:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. What's what are your plans for the future if you've thought about it? Because typically as a game designer, at least like by the time a game reaches, you know, publishing or, or the like crowdfunding, you're several steps ahead working on different games, you know? Yeah, but I don't know if that's the case with you as a publisher.

00:52:52:11 - 00:53:01:09
Speaker 1
Have you thought about what you want to do? Is it clear like what the next projects you want to do or do you want to grow DreamWorks Games?

00:53:01:11 - 00:53:11:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah, that's a that's a great question. I think. I think you are a little bit like me. I haven't. I have year on my shelf beside me. I have like moleskine notebooks.

00:53:11:03 - 00:53:13:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, with game designs.

00:53:13:03 - 00:53:34:02
Speaker 2
You know, I have a full shelf here with different games I have some of them are like 1% design, some of them are just an idea and all those are further along. But of course, most of my time when it goes into Sky Empire and the campaign, but I have a lot of games planned. I also have plans for an expansion or two actually for Sky Empire.

00:53:34:04 - 00:54:06:01
Speaker 2
That, of course, depends on the success of the campaign itself. Right now, it looks it looks promising. I think so. I have I have a lot of ideas for an expansion that's going to be next. It's going to be called the Purple Moon. I think that expansion features some sort of changes to some of the systems. And I'm also very interested in another game that I'm that I'm designing right now that I think will be something completely different from from any games out there yet.

00:54:06:03 - 00:54:34:13
Speaker 2
And and another tip for poor design is go play sidereal confluence that game is is one of the best game designs ever made. I'm not going to say any more about it, but that game design is it's inspiring to to to make another game a completely different game. Of course. But some of the ideas behind the conference are brilliant.

00:54:34:15 - 00:54:43:02
Speaker 2
So. So everyone should should go and try and play. Yeah. At least to try something completely different.

00:54:43:04 - 00:54:44:01
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:54:44:03 - 00:54:46:12
Speaker 2
From from the rest of the pack. Yeah.

00:54:46:14 - 00:55:25:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's, that's great advice. I, I think it's important to just play games in general and like play games that do influence you or make you want to, you know, to make something similar. One of my favorite stories that I read because I'm quite into like one of my hobbies is music, and I studied classical music. One of my favorite stories that I heard was about the Beatles, who made when they made the album Revolver and put it out.

00:55:25:17 - 00:55:56:11
Speaker 1
One of the members of the Beach Boys listened to the album and got really inspired by it and and then said, you know, this is like the best album I've ever heard. And then kind of as a response to it, he wrote the song God Only Knows and what Happened later when they released the album Pet Sounds, with that song, The Beatles got that album and they listen to it on repeat in the studio when recording their next album.

00:55:56:11 - 00:56:04:09
Speaker 1
I think Sgt Pepper's and and they had a similar experience, you know, and it influenced their next thing. So I think.

00:56:04:09 - 00:56:06:14
Speaker 2
It's yeah.

00:56:06:16 - 00:56:15:21
Speaker 1
One thing that's really cool is getting like is seeing what else is out there and getting inspired by it. Yeah, but also not copying it like, you know.

00:56:15:23 - 00:56:59:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Because, Yeah, because that's, that's a point. Right. Because also if people are giving an advice to a writer they are going to give him the advice. Read a lot of books. So, so if you're giving advice to a board game designer, go we are going to say to him, play a lot of games. But I think also actually that this is it's a great advice, but also sometimes it might actually be the wrong advice because you might get too inspired by everything around you parking wise and you end up designing a game that's just like maybe too close to some of the games you have been played.

00:56:59:16 - 00:57:25:02
Speaker 2
So I also think that sometimes taking time off playing board games and if you have a problem with your game, the game design, try to figure out a solution without playing other games. So maybe you come up with something new and something refreshing. So I think it's you know, it's a it's what you call is a two sided sword, right?

00:57:25:04 - 00:57:47:18
Speaker 2
So of course, you need to play a lot of games, but you also need to not play a lot of games. So sometimes you need to take time off playing games actually, to come up with a solution to a problem you have, or maybe a game design that's completely new and not seen before. So maybe you seek inspiration from actually playing computer games instead.

00:57:48:00 - 00:57:48:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:57:48:18 - 00:58:14:08
Speaker 2
Because you might bring some some solutions from a computer game into a board game that has actually not been seen before. Well, from reading books or watching movies and suddenly you get a solution from a completely different source than from another board game. So I think this is an important advice. Also, don't just don't just bring inspiration from playing a lot of games.

00:58:14:08 - 00:58:27:21
Speaker 2
Also try to step away from board gaming actually, and entirely thinking of solutions for yourself and board games designed for us without ever opening another board game box.

00:58:28:03 - 00:58:29:01
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:58:29:03 - 00:58:46:11
Speaker 2
But then maybe later on in the process you need to, you need to play some games to see how I'm not going to I can't find a solution to those problems one hand. What about designers? Does that help? Yeah. So then you go play some other board games. So I think it's it's a case of a little bit of both.

00:58:46:13 - 00:58:48:02
Speaker 2
I don't know if that makes sense.

00:58:48:04 - 00:59:10:16
Speaker 1
Absolutely does. Absolutely it does. And yeah, I completely agree that and it's like it's there's there's not one way to do it. I do think that it's important to have like at least the context of, you know, having played, like 100 games, let's at least, you know, just.

00:59:10:18 - 00:59:11:11
Speaker 2
Kind of yeah.

00:59:11:15 - 00:59:29:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, no, you are. Because like, you've what you don't want is like going in thinking that you've got something unique. Because I've seen that a lot of times before. Yeah. Where a designer comes in, he's like, well, you know, in my game you tuck these cards under the board. This is a real example. You touch cards under the boards, and I think that's really unique.

00:59:29:19 - 00:59:35:14
Speaker 1
And I'm like, Well, it's yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.

00:59:35:14 - 00:59:55:01
Speaker 2
You're right. Completely. Yeah. And, and sometimes you start those game on Kickstarter and game form right where I think there were unique is shown like 400 times. Yeah. And it reminds you 1 to 1 about another game you have on yourself, right. So so of course that's important you know, to your research.

00:59:55:03 - 01:00:11:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Speaking of, I loved your newsletter about the Herman. yeah. Could you. Could you, like, tell people about it? And kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that.

01:00:11:23 - 01:00:36:21
Speaker 2
That. Yeah, that was a maybe for some people, it feels like. And it's self-explanatory, right? What, what makes you play a game? But that was not the case for me. I was, I was listening to a lot of game Barrett actually another creator that has a lot of inspiring and great content. If you a board game or game designer look up Gabe Barrett and his podcast and also some of his YouTube.

01:00:37:00 - 01:00:39:03
Speaker 1
Yeah board game design lab.

01:00:39:05 - 01:01:05:10
Speaker 2
Yeah exactly. And he he wrote a book called Find the Fun and I listen to that book by letter in the in the airplane going on a vacation and and that inspired me a lot. But then I had this game of go against my him my nephew and he's called a hermit and that's why the this model is called the Herman curve and and he's he's like a normal guy right?

01:01:05:10 - 01:01:29:14
Speaker 2
He's a normal boy. He plays, you know, and woodblocks and Minecraft and stuff like that. And it's almost impossible to drag him away from the computer. But he's a nice boy. And and they love him a lot, but but they're not. He like, he was like, looking at all my body, my talking self. And he said, uncle, can we play a board game?

01:01:29:16 - 01:01:52:11
Speaker 2
England I'm like, I have some, some heavy stuff on myself, right? It's like is like time for and and safe and you know, clash of cultures it's like it's not suited for an 18 year old I think. But but then I had an old copy of the go and I dug around and I put that out and and he had never played like board games like that before.

01:01:52:12 - 01:02:20:06
Speaker 2
And I he's in his life. So we, we set it up and we started playing and I tried to, you know, explain the rules to you is a very good game because the rules are so simple. It's like the nine will kill me eight and with the small bits of of other things in it. But then we started playing and at first he was like indifferent to everybody who's playing, but he's looking over at the computer, When can I get back to my Minecraft?

01:02:20:08 - 01:02:53:12
Speaker 2
Right? So but then he started to know, like figuring out the systems and I could see his emotional state changing from thinking this game is bad. I don't want to play this. I want to play Minecraft too. I this is something I can learn. This is something I can I can. I can maybe excel at. Right? So. So he started cueing some of my units and suddenly he kind of, engaged in the game and I couldn't see like all this positive emotions running through his little body.

01:02:53:12 - 01:03:20:16
Speaker 2
Right. The joy and excitement and anxiety also and and also the negative emotions the way I like at one time. I of course, if you're not strategical, I baited him in to taking my nine with his ten so I could kill his ten with my spy. Of course, that's like the first the first sentence in the in the strategic the strategic strategic menu.

01:03:20:17 - 01:03:43:15
Speaker 2
Like yeah, don't, don't do that. And that made him really, really mad. And he was almost about to leave the game right. But he you fought he fought his way back and and of course I won the game because I'm not I'm not going to let him when he needs to keep he needs to show show me that he can he can win in order for me to do that.

01:03:43:17 - 01:04:05:20
Speaker 2
But that made him so excited that he ended the game on like almost like high, right? He was like, We need to play again, but we are going to eat. No, we are not going to. We are going to play again. And you have make changes and Coca-Cola and and he's Minecraft running in the background. And he didn't even go for his color.

01:04:05:21 - 01:04:35:01
Speaker 2
Right. He wanted to play again. So so that was that was some game changing experience for me because Deep Buried says when you develop a game, you need to make it fun. Engine right? You put time in and you get fun out. And I agree with him on that part, of course. But also I think that it's the question you asked just before getting the fun out is how did this make you feel?

01:04:35:03 - 01:05:03:08
Speaker 2
Because actually, when playing a board game, bad emotions might not always be bad. So you can experience like, I'm behind, I'm struggling, the other guys are picking on me, but if you make the systems allow for that guy to make what I call a skyrocket, you know, to make an epic comeback, this is in my in the games I have monetized also other games than Sky Empire of course.

01:05:03:08 - 01:05:42:02
Speaker 2
But this is this is the most addictive part of a board game, actually. That's when people feel behind, but they figure out a strategy to get to win the game or get close to winning. So they experience it going from like a like a bad emotion, maybe like a little bit angry or disappointed or feeling left out by the game and suddenly they find this system or this this car or this mechanic, and they can I can use it in this combination, and suddenly they skyrocket and they get a lot of positive things out of that from the game.

01:05:42:06 - 01:06:29:09
Speaker 2
And that's a very addictive, addictive feeling in gamers brains. That's that's an important lesson. If, if if you can, you know, make the game have moments like this, people will enjoyed a lot. And I also found out from monitoring people playing that actually you didn't always have to be that guy that made the epic comeback. Just watching another guy, maybe even your opponent in a one on one game make an epic comeback against you is also very addictive because you can see, wow, this is like this is like a life lived, you know, condensed into a two hour board game with ups and downs.

01:06:29:09 - 01:07:03:11
Speaker 2
And I might actually pull off the win from behind. So that's that's also a very important thing. I think you need to you need to have systems that allow for people to to get back in the game. And I'm not talking about catch up mechanics, you know, where the where the leading player only get one parts and all that are behind get three points that's a catch up mechanic and that's horrible Not catch up mechanics but they need they need to have like they need to be able to figure out a strategy to get back in the game.

01:07:03:11 - 01:07:12:17
Speaker 2
So they need to be some intertwining systems that it can allow for that to happen. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a long way around it. Yeah. Sorry. Ahead.

01:07:12:19 - 01:07:25:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, it's perfect. I from a really interesting end and just, you know, realizing that it's not all about, you know, good feelings, but there is also, you know.

01:07:25:09 - 01:07:26:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

01:07:26:13 - 01:07:41:01
Speaker 1
Bad feelings are a part of having that contrast, you know, is Yeah. Is where it's interesting because you don't want your game to kind of just a single, you know, single emotion, you know, if there's ups and downs.

01:07:41:02 - 01:08:04:22
Speaker 2
No. Yeah. And of course you will also using this system, I'm creating a game that's not for everyone. And that's also important to say this system, Sky Empire, will bring you through different emotions, positive and negative emotions. And and some people are not comfortable having a lot of emotions when playing a board game. And that's that's perfectly fine.

01:08:04:22 - 01:08:31:07
Speaker 2
That's that's that's there's nothing wrong with that. Then maybe this game is not for them and they need to play another game. So also you need to take that into consideration. You cannot you cannot make a game that suits all, so you need to find a focus. Do you want people to experience negative things during the game or you want it like to be a, you know, kind of game that builds a small curve of positive emotions?

01:08:31:09 - 01:08:56:00
Speaker 2
A Because a person that is not comfortable experience, those emotions will get really frustrated, frustrated. If you play Sky Empire and Sentiments bombs on one of his ships he left on a volcano island and he gets attacked and that ship gets gets killed. So he will be frustrated by. Yeah, so but that's that's the game design I want.

01:08:56:00 - 01:09:22:12
Speaker 2
I want all emotions to be in play. Yeah, but that kind of game design is not for everyone. So also figure out who I might target audience Is that like a small family just enjoying not having negative interactions with each other, just sitting in their own little box playing, You know, I like to call them solitaire multiplayer games and I love those games myself.

01:09:22:12 - 01:09:45:10
Speaker 2
We play a lot of action over, for example, Emmerdale. We like, we like those games a lot. But some people will will only like that type of game and they will not be comfortable attacking other players in a board game. So you need you cannot do both. I think you need one or the other. When people try to do both, it's is not going well.

01:09:45:12 - 01:10:07:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Except that your game is is not for everybody and, and that's fine. Yeah. Some people dread the idea of, you know, randomly being attacked or having, you know, having an event that impacts one player and negatively another player positively. Yeah.

01:10:07:23 - 01:10:30:05
Speaker 2
And be honest about it, Right. Yeah. Because some people for example that some people walked up to me. and they say is this like or can you, can you play this, Can you win the game without attacking anyone else? And actually, you can you can win Sky Empire without taking anybody else. But that's like you need you need a bit of luck and you need some of the stars to align.

01:10:30:05 - 01:10:56:21
Speaker 2
So it's possible, but you need to be honest so you don't make a person by your game that thought, okay, this is the game without combat, so be honest about it and say you can. But if you are not comfortable with combat, this is not the game for you. So be honest. You know, of course you want to people to like the game and you want and you need them to buy the game, right to me to make a living out of it.

01:10:56:23 - 01:11:17:15
Speaker 2
But again, think on the long on the long terms, you know, and build it sustainable and not just try to sell the game to him. Be honest about it because he might actually buy the next game you make because he know that guy is honest about his games. Yeah. And now he's saying this game is about combat. So I believe in him.

01:11:17:20 - 01:11:26:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you don't want somebody buying the game and then hating it because that's not. Yeah, that's not good for you in the long term.

01:11:26:08 - 01:11:30:15
Speaker 2
That's not great. That's Not a great situation. Yeah. Yeah.

01:11:30:17 - 01:11:50:12
Speaker 1
Absolutely. All right. Well, thank you so much for giving me your time during the campaign. And really looking forward to to seeing how the campaign does and yeah, your future projects and expansions for Sky Empire and all of that. Thank you so much.

01:11:50:14 - 01:12:16:03
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm just one final advice. We haven't. We haven't. And yeah, we haven't agreed that this. But I will just say one final advice, and that is to if that's okay with you, I want to reach out to you. If you have a if you have a board game and you need someone to, to playtest it, like to have some input, I think I would advise people that are listening to this podcast to reach out to you.

01:12:16:05 - 01:12:26:08
Speaker 2
If okay because because you've meant a lot to me during the during the development of Sky Empire. So that's, that's a great advice if you're okay with that.

01:12:26:08 - 01:12:50:11
Speaker 1
I run, of course. Thank you so much for that. Yeah yeah. If if people want one of the sort of services that I provide as I arrange an organized or played test groups for blind tests or LED tests. And actually you had a lot of a lot of luck in one of our play testers is very involved in the toilet imperium community so.

01:12:50:11 - 01:12:52:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:52:16 - 01:13:07:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. He gave some some others some harsh feedback but also very valuable feedback to me and made me change some mechanics actually. So. So that's what you need, guys. That's what you're doing.

01:13:07:02 - 01:13:22:03
Speaker 1
All right, Perfect. We'll thank you again.