38: Creating Simple-to-Play Games with Cole Smith

In this episode of the Player Lair Podcast, we sit down with Cole Smith, designer of Tanuki, 3 Magi, and Sauros, to talk about his journey from pandemic hobbyist to published game designer. We dive into his roots in childhood rule-bending, how being a graphic designer informs his prototypes, and why sometimes it's better to shelve a game, or fight for it.

Cole shares insights on pitching, playtesting, balancing creativity with feedback, and why quick overview videos might be more important than your rulebook. We also explore his latest game Sauros, a clever blend of trick-taking and puzzly tile placement… with dinosaurs.

Whether you're just getting into game design or looking to refine your pitch process, this episode is packed with honest advice, practical tools, and a good dose of creative encouragement.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:32:00
Speaker 1
Do it enough. Any creative thing you will find out through yourself or people's reactions in the journey if it needs to keep being pushed forward or I kind of die. I think just to ask somebody else who isn't, you know, the because it isn't the creator of this idea to just say, is this good enough or not? It it kind of makes sense to me why you said, like, I don't really want to say either way.

00:00:32:02 - 00:00:54:13
Speaker 1
I think part of it is I think your identity goes into your creativity. And so part of my games and making an impression on whatever publishers wanted to work with me is pushing that idea and believing in it. I think if you're honest with yourself, you'll see when like, this idea is not going to work, I can try something else.

00:00:54:15 - 00:01:23:13
Speaker 1
Or you'll see when I asked those people and they said, I don't know, I don't think it's really that good, then you get it published because obviously when you play with people that aren't designing games and you ask them those types of questions, I've noticed there can be, even if are friends, there can be a lot of criticism and they don't mean it in a bad way, but it's because if people aren't making games, they can't see them.

00:01:23:13 - 00:01:44:11
Speaker 1
Your game is just deeper and pain. You know, it's it's not if they can't buy it in the store, it's not a published game yet. And the goal is to get it published. But the point is they might be persuaded to say what their influence to say. It's not the same gaming experience as a super popular game with beautiful components.

00:01:44:11 - 00:02:28:03
Speaker 1
It's actually published and finished out of the store. I always tell people, I kind of repeated this on a few podcasts, but it's true is that I grew up playing a lot of board games with my grandparents and they were always like buying new games at yard sales and bringing them in. But we played a lot of the simple like cribbage, UGA, rummy card games, but they also had a lot of unique board games that that I haven't really even seen around a lot and even anymore and a lot of friends and know about and stuff like that and a few strategy ones like strategic hour.

00:02:28:05 - 00:02:49:17
Speaker 1
So I didn't know until later that like a lot of people my age, didn't play a ton of board games with their grandparents. So I remember when I was young, always wanting to change the rules of games that I played a lot with my friends and with my cousins and stuff, and just making up my own rules and seeing what we could do.

00:02:49:17 - 00:03:03:22
Speaker 1
But seriously getting into game design, probably during the pandemic, when I had a lot of free time, I had some time off work and during that period I was able to pitch and like signed my first game and then I just kept going with it.

00:03:04:00 - 00:03:07:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that game is to nuke it right? Yeah. Yeah.

00:03:07:11 - 00:03:30:03
Speaker 1
So, yeah, for people listening that might not know it's Snooki is published by synopsis games and is a family friendly quick take that game based on a to nuke is like a Japanese raccoon dog and they're all dressed up as ninjas and samurai so you're kind of low on each other's characters up but all in good fun.

00:03:30:05 - 00:03:46:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, it looks looks very good. I haven't actually gotten to play it yet, but it looks cool. My first my first published game or one of my first ones was also about ninjas in Samurai called 99 Ninja and. yeah, yeah.

00:03:46:09 - 00:03:46:18
Speaker 1
I've seen.

00:03:46:18 - 00:03:49:07
Speaker 2
That. You've got that in common.

00:03:49:09 - 00:03:50:12
Speaker 1
Nice.

00:03:50:14 - 00:04:16:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. And yeah, I feel like that's a lot of people's way and as is by modifying existing games that you're already playing because I know a lot of people that like that listen to podcasts like this or at least I remember also me when I first started listening and as I got interested in game design, there's always like this element of like, where do you start?

00:04:16:10 - 00:04:30:05
Speaker 2
How do you start? And I think that's a really good entry way. Like if you if you play a lot of, you know, strategical, I'm starting to modify it in some way. That's basically game design. Yeah.

00:04:30:07 - 00:04:51:10
Speaker 1
So there's a lot of people that do like chess variance and stuff like that just for, for fun and I remember I had a lot of friends that were into Warhammer, like the miniatures costs, like when I was young, they always cost so much money. So like I only played with a friend who had multiple armies that I could use one.

00:04:51:12 - 00:05:11:01
Speaker 1
Then I would go and take like the Lord of the Rings risk because they had all these different like plastic minis and had all, you know, a bunch of regions like an area. Well, it is an area control game, but I would like make up abilities for different, you know, characters and kind of like try to make it a bit like Warhammer.

00:05:11:03 - 00:05:20:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, You mentioned being Africa. You're your full time graphic designer, is that right?

00:05:20:03 - 00:05:52:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. Now I am for like I actually after the pandemic I got went back to school for graphic design. So working full time in graphic design has been fairly new. Actually. I've always been into art and obviously with board game design, you know, designing creative things. But before then I was working a job in public schools and then that's why I had a bunch of time off because a lot of the schools shut down for a while.

00:05:52:13 - 00:06:08:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. And how do you think graphic design, do you think graphics impacts your games? Like because I know for me it was kind of the opposite. I started game design and without realizing it, I kind of did graphic design as well and go.

00:06:09:00 - 00:06:10:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, that is the kind of learn to.

00:06:10:14 - 00:06:12:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00:06:12:12 - 00:06:44:00
Speaker 1
I think it definitely helps with like prototype building. you know, being able to have, have all the programs and tools to just make quick icons and stuff like that, just to make my prototypes more legible for players, even for the sake of time saving. I don't, I, I'd say even like the, like when I make graphics and actually print stuff off in a further play tested prototype.

00:06:44:02 - 00:07:04:17
Speaker 1
Still like obviously not the best graphic design I could do, but it's I feel like I can do it pretty quickly to make stuff more legible for players because when you just do the pen and pad on like paper and stuff, some people I find now don't always know what my symbols mean and they have to keep asking.

00:07:04:17 - 00:07:29:18
Speaker 1
Or for some people it can be hard to get their imagination into it. So like even just being able to use a bit of art and like I'm a big fan of for finished products like paying an illustrator, but a prototype using like the AI features in my Adobe programs is super quick just to like put a character or a building, something that gives players a more visual.

00:07:29:20 - 00:07:55:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. No, I think really impact testing, or at least what I've found is if a lot of people actually have a hard time, even if they don't admit it or don't know it about themselves, if they have just kind of a blink, you know, graphic design board game, they're going to have a very different experience. without actually seeing that.

00:07:55:23 - 00:08:28:21
Speaker 1
That the two of my published games actually like one evolved from a school project that I did as a small trick taking card game where I did a bunch of illustration and did all the graphic design, and I did that more like in-depth because it was for a school project. And the publishers that reached out to me because I shared it online really liked kind of the design and artwork from a visual standpoint and that lead them to want to play it with me.

00:08:28:23 - 00:08:51:08
Speaker 1
And then even to Newquay, like I was kind of before seriously doing graphic design, but I did at least some like illustrations of character cards and then colored them up on the computer and like, it wasn't anything super fancy. But I think even to a publisher, it's always people saying like, publishers don't care, but because they're going to get their own artists anyway.

00:08:51:14 - 00:09:06:21
Speaker 1
But I think they know that. So they're still intrigued that, this guy put a bit more effort in to maybe like making his aim a bit more creative and colorful. I think it doesn't hurt for people if they want to draw characters and make it look a little nicer.

00:09:06:23 - 00:09:16:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, for sure. What is what is your process of making a game look like?

00:09:16:02 - 00:09:37:11
Speaker 1
Say, I usually start with like somatic theme, probably. I like thinking of like even if it's simple, like do I want to make a game about pirates or do I want to make a game about something in space or whatever and it can get or filled out later, but I like just thinking about like, what world do I want to be in?

00:09:37:12 - 00:10:10:11
Speaker 1
I feel like that's inspired by maybe the books I'm reading or the shows I'm watching at the time. And then I think, like, what kind of mechanics would work well with this theme? And also maybe what type of mechanics that I've been playing lately feel overall in life. I'm a pretty like it's the word I get like motivated by other arts or hobbies or things that I'm doing in life, which I think is similar for most people.

00:10:10:11 - 00:10:34:08
Speaker 1
But it's usually like if I'm playing a lot of push your Luck games and probably without even thinking about it in a month, like I might want to, I might have an idea for a push your luck game. So but I do think the one thing that I struggle with in game design is creating unique components, like from a physical standpoint, I find I usually think of theme and mechanics first.

00:10:34:08 - 00:10:45:18
Speaker 1
Like I said, then whenever I play a game with a really cool physical component, I'm always trying to like look at it and think like, How did this person think of this?

00:10:45:20 - 00:10:46:23
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:10:47:01 - 00:10:55:13
Speaker 1
This. Yeah. There's some really cool games out there with a lot of cool buildings and pieces that move around and things like that.

00:10:55:15 - 00:11:21:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's definitely a challenge. I recently was with my friend Sam MacDonald from Virtual Games. We did, we did the what's it called, the Global Game gym, which is, it's a 48 hour game gym, which basically means you've got 48 hours. You take a given theme and you create a game based around that in the in that time frame.

00:11:21:12 - 00:11:48:18
Speaker 2
So you're, you know, you're very, very restricted in time. But it's very cool because it's the second time I've done it and you, when you're just focused on that, you can actually get a pretty cool thing and lasts global games. the theme was bubble and we made a prototype of a game for a gumball machine. And it's the first time, the first time we did like a component first design.

00:11:48:20 - 00:12:21:03
Speaker 2
It was so, I found it really interesting and it wasn't until sort of later we're like, Hey, we're using, you know, that specific game, we're using marbles. And it kind of felt like a gumball machine. But it was, it was definitely a challenge and definitely different from because I also go either theme first or mechanic first. Like, like you said, I've been playing a lot of pusher like games after I'd be like, Well, I'd like to do Patchwork, but with something else.

00:12:21:05 - 00:12:47:20
Speaker 1
I was even thinking like, I know it doesn't play in a lot to the puzzle because it could be flat. But in your Rise of Babel and I've played that once online with you, like once I saw the thing on Kickstarter, like that's just so cool with all the layers of the tower, even like something as simple as thinking about and I make this puzzle look a little more 3D or come to life on the table, I'd like to start exploring more of those types of ideas.

00:12:47:22 - 00:13:20:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah. Well, I think, I think you you would probably be good at it as well, because I think that's probably intertwined a lot with graphic design and yeah, you know, decisions like that. Definitely. How do you develop your games, make them better, find, find things wrong with them or solutions. What, what is that.

00:13:20:07 - 00:13:40:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think, I think initially like first prototypes because they're always so rough is I've gotten good enough to ask friends to play and then just kind of be like during the first couple of play tests, I'm scratching things out and writing over them and saying like, you shouldn't score that many points because that doesn't make sense now that we did it.

00:13:40:06 - 00:14:02:08
Speaker 1
And I'm pretty good at the initials, but then once it gets smoothed out a bit and I know it's coming in to the like any gritty, definitely have a really good group of like guys that go to local board game meetups in my city and I become friends with and they're always willing to play test. So that helps a lot.

00:14:02:08 - 00:14:28:05
Speaker 1
But even thinking of my Game three majority, you did a lot of development on like I think that's maybe an area I also need to work on in myself because like you brought on a team and a lot of the stuff you did to kind of find polished the last little bit really helped my game become a lot better in balancing and things like that.

00:14:28:05 - 00:14:52:16
Speaker 1
So I think I'm pretty good at like methodically and things that are creating interesting interactions, like knowing, take that rule out. It doesn't add to the interactions when it comes down to like really doing it like a spreadsheet of like, is this ability getting players too many points? Or if somebody always gets that ability, are they always going to win?

00:14:52:18 - 00:15:01:12
Speaker 1
Kind of like, yeah, the spreadsheet numbers is something I think I need to work on in in learning how to balance my games.

00:15:01:14 - 00:15:23:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah. That's, that's, I think that's something for me at least I make a lot of spreadsheets, but I don't think that's where my balancing comes from. Like the spreadsheets is more for making the components, but I do a lot more. But I feel like if I, if I feel like something is wrong, then I try and find why it were why it feels wrong.

00:15:23:17 - 00:15:53:06
Speaker 2
But exactly like what you said, you know, like in that in the beginning, scratching stuff out, like feeling somebody getting too many points for something or something. I think one of the main things for me is I really like things to feel fair. and if something doesn't feel fair, like if the game is rewarding, rewarding something a little bit too much or if, or not rewarding something, you know, if, if, if it's missing that fairness, then I look for reasons why.

00:15:53:08 - 00:15:58:18
Speaker 2
But yeah, I'm happy. I'm happy that you feel like. Like the game is better, that.

00:15:58:20 - 00:15:59:08
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:15:59:10 - 00:16:22:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, even even the difference of like now that I have the prototype, still tons of things are getting have already been changed in the rule book. Like there there is. It's funny because I'm playing it with friends. I'm knowing that you and the publisher already made some more bouncing changes. I know they're in the new rule, but I can find online.

00:16:22:04 - 00:16:44:21
Speaker 1
Sometimes it's easier for people that haven't played yet to just play with the old rules where this card is overpowered because for me to be like it says this, but remember this ability, it's not worth it. So I try to not tell the new players like, this cards are really good. Get it every time. I just kind of let them figure it out.

00:16:44:21 - 00:16:52:15
Speaker 2
So yeah. Tell me bit about your other Kickstarter right now. That's a part of the game called Sorrows, right?

00:16:52:17 - 00:17:24:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. Sorry. I was like the end of Dinosaur is a trick taking failing puzzle game set with a dinosaur theme. It's on Kickstarter right now, and so the trick taking is fairly standard. You're playing with these big chunky mahjong tiles with these nice colored, engraved like images of different dinosaur types. And in regard to the trick taking, I'd say the one thing that makes it stand out a bit is you flip over a new tile.

00:17:24:05 - 00:17:50:05
Speaker 1
Every trick that players are trying to win and that determines like the Trump suit opposed to and standard euchre where you know that the Trump suit is for the entire round. It's like every trick hand you're playing that suit changes because a new tile comes up and then when you regardless if you win or not, you'll get one tile to add to your asymmetrical puzzle board.

00:17:50:11 - 00:18:14:08
Speaker 1
But if you win, you can take that center one that you were playing for, or you could steal someone else's. And then they all have different dinosaur type things and then different symbols. So you get more points if you connect or green dinosaurs together, etc.. And there's also eggs that whoever has the most eggs on their board gets a certain amount of points.

00:18:14:08 - 00:18:42:07
Speaker 1
There's bones that only score if they're beside eggs, but they can have multiple on kind of combo off feet or footprints that always need to be two in a pair together and never any more. And then there's teeth that score more if they're not touching other teeth. So there's they're all simple within themselves but there can be some interesting moments where you can really get all the colors and all the symbols working the right way.

00:18:42:09 - 00:19:15:15
Speaker 1
Or you can say, like I won this tile. I didn't like I didn't want this tile because someone stole mine. And now I have to make it work in my puzzle. And where does that work? So it's kind of a mashes trick taking in the laying together. And I think it does it in a really accessible way, Like it's not a super heavy game by any means, but and that one, the publishers did a really good job with Kickstarter components, these nice neoprene mats and the tiles are just great.

00:19:15:15 - 00:19:26:03
Speaker 1
Like now that I have a prototype and I feel I also like a really big and and they just have really bright colors, so they look really great.

00:19:26:05 - 00:19:47:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. And it feels really elegant to me. Like when I at least I was able to get a very good idea of how to play just from the Kickstarter video. yeah. And there seem to be it looks like there's a lot of really neat ideas I really liked. It's a nice hybrid of two mechanics, two very, you know, mechanics.

00:19:47:12 - 00:20:23:15
Speaker 2
Everybody knows it's still lightweight, also like it's asymmetric, but you actually every round you, you switch or you pass the boards around, right? So you're actually going to go with those asymmetric boards during your play. So it looks really good to me. I'm really excited to thanks to play it. What is I think from what I've seen of your games, you tend to design more on the on the lighter side and with that sort of elegance, is that, is that intentional?

00:20:23:15 - 00:20:27:13
Speaker 2
Am I right? Do, do you see yourself that way as well as a designer?

00:20:27:15 - 00:20:59:20
Speaker 1
I have an interesting story. So when, when I said during the pandemic, I wanted to try making some games because I had a lot of time. The first game I seriously tried like making artwork and planning to pitch It was this like fantasy world game. It was super heavy, had like hundreds of cards or each one was individual or characters that, you know, moved and had abilities and things completely different than the other characters.

00:20:59:20 - 00:21:25:00
Speaker 1
All asymmetrical and I really liked it and it was pretty unique. It was kind of this journey where you're moving back and forth between locations and adding special things on locations and kind of like made the whole thing and thought I play tested a lot, you know, made a rule book how to play video that was way too long, and all this stuff that I hadn't really tried doing before and pitched it in.

00:21:25:02 - 00:21:52:20
Speaker 1
One company got back to me and wanted to play it on Tabletop and a publisher played it with me. Got a good time. He liked like the feel and stuff, told me like it just wasn't balanced enough. And that kind of comes in with what we talked about before and that one had so many different unique cards that I'm sure I could do it now, but I kind of felt like, maybe I made something too big to start.

00:21:52:22 - 00:22:18:01
Speaker 1
And then it was right after that that I made the idea for Tuki. And it's funny because the original idea for To Newquay was even simpler. And if anyone gets their hands on playing to nookie, it's very simple. If you're in the board game hobby, you'll learn it in like a minute. You know, it's it's like most praise I've got from that have been like families and their kids.

00:22:18:01 - 00:22:41:09
Speaker 1
You know, it's not really for the hobby gamer. So I did this big switch of wanting to make a very big complex game and then thinking, well, if I want to try to get like a game published, maybe I should do something smaller so I can really focus on each section of the game. And yeah, and right now I've definitely made some lighter weight ones.

00:22:41:11 - 00:23:06:15
Speaker 1
I like three Magi and I've made a few more with Adrian, who designed that with me are a bit heavier. I wouldn't say they're incredibly heavy, but it also is easier when you're designing with someone. I think my plan soon is to start some solo designs that are maybe a longer endeavor because I know what goes into game design now.

00:23:06:17 - 00:23:22:04
Speaker 1
I'm not just like starting something big and crazy and I'm feeling overwhelmed. But like you said, probably up until now, I've even a lot of games that have been pitched and rejected like have been, say, smaller to medium weight size.

00:23:22:06 - 00:23:51:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. I a I have a similar trajectory I voice I started with a a I wouldn't say it's a light game, but it was a dexterity game with, with some euro mechanics which which turned out quite well. It had won a couple of like prototype contests but that was in 2018. Then I went and maybe my fourth prototype I did was also like big, heavy epic.

00:23:51:09 - 00:24:13:17
Speaker 2
And then when that I have similar issues to you, like it felt like we were constantly needing to make changes, rebalances all, all that sort of stuff. But I find I find that I learned so much from that one that and no, actually, I in this past year I had the opportunity to, to work on an epic sandbox game.

00:24:13:17 - 00:24:49:14
Speaker 2
And I'm just stealing ideas from that old one. Just I'll just also whilst whilst knowing not to fall into certain pitfalls, you know like because you do, you do learn or at least for me with that game I think I've, I've learned a lot of like what didn't work and now it's been, it's been a lot better with this with this new one which I kept unfortunately talked about because it's it's signed and very soon hopefully I'm hoping like yeah it'll more information will be out there but yeah.

00:24:49:16 - 00:24:58:17
Speaker 1
That's that's always the worst places if you get something signed but like the publisher doesn't want you to talk about it yet. You're just waiting until you can.

00:24:58:22 - 00:25:07:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me about your experience pitching your games.

00:25:07:06 - 00:25:40:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, like I said a little earlier is like when I did that one, that was probably too big at the time. Some things just remembering like how long it took me to put stuff on tabletop simulator and make all the files. But I have kind of like a system now where, you know, I do game design all that stuff and when it's ready and I have like a checklist of like I make a sell sheet, I don't think they're super important, but there's some publishers that look really like them.

00:25:40:18 - 00:25:58:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, but I'm always like, if I have a video, it can tell you so much more in 3 minutes than one page with some words and a visual. But I make it anyways because some like it. Like I just said, I make like a three minute overview video. I used to always make them way too long. Yeah. And I would tell you every rule.

00:25:58:16 - 00:26:26:06
Speaker 1
And then people were like, This is too long is just make it based on what's fun about the game and why I should be interested in playing your game. So think a short video. I think a rulebook like PDF put everything on tabletop simulator. Haven't needed as much, but I always make like a physical prototype ETF off like where you can cut the cards out in the board yourself.

00:26:26:06 - 00:27:04:00
Speaker 1
Like if you want to print it, just kind of make everything. And then I kind of write up little intro email for the game, which is usually like thematic overview, play overview, which are already in my rulebook, and then maybe compare it to a few games on the market, put all the links in, you know, for my video I just made and the table top mod and then I kind of just, just email like, you know, look up the company and say, would they be a good fit for this game if they already have like a submission form?

00:27:04:01 - 00:27:27:06
Speaker 1
Fill it out, send everything in. Sometimes they don't. So I just email and I just basically say I'm a game designer from Canada and now I can say, here are the games I've signed with these companies. And then I just ask, Are you accepting game submissions? And if they get back to me, yes, then I send them That whole email I just talked about with all the, you know, include the rulebook, include everything.

00:27:27:07 - 00:28:01:09
Speaker 1
And, you know, it's a lot of talking back and forth for people who haven't done it or maybe trying to pitch. There's a lot of rejection, but ultimately I try to remind myself, like there can be multiple reasons. You know, the easiest thing is like actually like your game. But they don't design heavy games. I've even had publishers say, we don't do that type of game, but I know a publisher that does.

00:28:01:09 - 00:28:19:18
Speaker 1
So they give me their contact info. And I think the biggest thing is making connections with people and just realizing that it does take time. A lot of waiting and a lot of back and forth. But I hope that kind of explains how I get it.

00:28:19:20 - 00:28:47:18
Speaker 2
And that's that seems like a really good I love your checklist. I think I do. I have a similar process, but I do like certain things. There are certain things that I procrastinate on a little bit, which is is rulebooks. Because for me, I yeah, I always, I always rate the rule book last and it's just I feel like and I know a lot of people do the opposite I know a lot of people actually keep a like a dev log, which is a rulebook.

00:28:47:18 - 00:29:17:16
Speaker 2
So they'll actually after they make changes to the update, the rule rulebook, I don't do that. And the reason I don't do that is because, well, for one thing, writing rule books is probably my least favorite part of the process. But, but also, I find that if I've written the rules, then I'd be less likely to like, scrap things or it would be a little bit more difficult for me to throw things away.

00:29:17:16 - 00:29:38:09
Speaker 2
And I want to be able to throw things away because so often, so often throwing things away and building them back up in a different way is going to make the game better. And I don't want me, having written the rules being like even more like put in this much work into this and I've like solidified it with rules, just makes it a little bit harder for me.

00:29:38:13 - 00:29:55:16
Speaker 2
But I do procrastinate rules like right now I've got games that I've got three rule books for that I need to write. Yeah, different games, which is like, yeah, yeah, a lot. But, but yeah, no it's, it's very good. When, when do you actually rate rule books.

00:29:55:18 - 00:30:25:11
Speaker 1
And I'd say in the middle of the process, like I probably write the one time like for what we're talking about like that checklist of stuff I would say I do the rule book usually first, but obviously that's after lots of play testing for a long time. The rules are just in my head. Yeah, I think I procrastinate on making videos even though they're not.

00:30:25:11 - 00:30:47:08
Speaker 1
I don't know. I have this weird thing where like I'm a super charismatic, like social person in my day to day life with people I know. But once, like, you get a camera on me, I just get so, I don't know, weird. Like even in the podcast right now, my voice is kind of monotone when I talk on stuff like this.

00:30:47:10 - 00:31:09:05
Speaker 1
So I have to like write out a script of what I'm going to say even for a three minute like overview video of a game that I made. Yeah, just because I'll start talking and I won't know what I'm talking about and but I definitely like push the video part, but I think an overview video is honestly one of the most important ones from my experience.

00:31:09:07 - 00:31:25:12
Speaker 1
Like I've had a lot of publishers just get back and be like, Yeah, do you have a video? And then like, you know, from there they'll be like, can we play it online? Can I get the rule book? Like they'd rather just watch the video first because it doesn't take them that long.

00:31:25:14 - 00:31:49:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. So it's such a good skill to have to be able to make a video. I think it's really normal to write a script for things like that because and like for for me at least, speaking to people and being on camera is something I do pretty often because one of my, I guess you can say one of my professions now is doing stand up comedy because I do.

00:31:49:04 - 00:31:49:19
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:31:49:21 - 00:32:34:00
Speaker 2
And typically I'll have like three or four gigs a week, but I go out. Yeah, but it's like I still, I still need to script things for, for videos. Yeah. And, and it's the same thing like also, well like when getting my material ready, I do I do a lot of like I have improv bits but there is a lot of scripting involved in, in the non improv but yeah, like editing and like figuring out what the best words are and how do I as quickly as possible, present an idea which is the same for like in the video, you don't want to a five minute video or I've seen I've seen some like 20

00:32:34:00 - 00:32:35:18
Speaker 2
minute videos which.

00:32:35:19 - 00:32:37:00
Speaker 1
Is those guys.

00:32:37:06 - 00:32:38:04
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:32:38:06 - 00:32:47:23
Speaker 2
But you learn that and yeah, I think like for me right now the videos that I've made and that I think are probably the best ones are 60 seconds because it's just a.

00:32:47:23 - 00:32:48:18
Speaker 1
Well, yeah.

00:32:48:20 - 00:33:21:03
Speaker 2
Yeah I think you can get an idea across in 60 seconds for I think for like any game and I do I think that's a really good time to have because you know you'll have different publishers which are like typically lots of publishers will see 5 minutes or less or 3 minutes or less. But yeah, I try to go for 60 seconds because that condenses and it's also good for you to figure out like, what is the most important thing in this game.

00:33:22:09 - 00:33:53:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, I would struggle with that, like getting it when it's your own creation too. Sometimes, you know, the ins and outs, you know everything about it. So you're like, I do 60 seconds. Like what am I taking out? But like you said is I don't need to know everything right away. A publisher, they need to know what's most important because I see a lot of and that's a tough thing to do when you're like creative is you kind of think like, I'm the only guy doing it and I'm the only guy doing it well sometimes.

00:33:53:13 - 00:34:18:01
Speaker 1
And it's like there's a lot of people that are making really cool stuff and it is hard to stand out and you need to, you know, edit your script, like you said. And even the same and how you make your rulebook or how you set up the game on table top like you need this component or can you make it look better, like just those little things to make it more accessible and more beautiful.

00:34:18:07 - 00:34:30:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. And you don't want, I think with the video some people and me as well in the beginning is I thought first of all I people had a lot of patience.

00:34:30:11 - 00:34:31:18
Speaker 3
But also but.

00:34:31:18 - 00:34:43:17
Speaker 2
Also I thought I wanted people to understand how to play the game, the video. And I don't think that's that's what you want. I think what you want people to to to find it interesting, you know, to know.

00:34:43:17 - 00:34:49:02
Speaker 1
Why it's Yeah. Why it's unique. Yeah.

00:34:49:04 - 00:34:57:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Do you, do you go to conventions often.

00:34:57:11 - 00:35:42:05
Speaker 1
Not a ton, but I did a local small one recently and then there's another one that's in my city that I go to every year. So like, there's one in my city coming up, and I like 200 people go through it. Not quite that many, but like it's very focused on just playing games, which is really fun. Last year they let me do like a giveaway to Newquay and things like that, and we get a few vendors that come in and then there's one and a distributor from from Canada that goes to the local convention and like shows off new games and things like that.

00:35:42:05 - 00:36:07:13
Speaker 1
So there's a little bit it's fun and I get to kind of just play games with people, either people I know or do people from the area, but I did not. This year. Last year I went to Breakout Con, which is the big one in Toronto, and it's like way bigger and I want to is really fun. And that one has a pretty good age testing.

00:36:07:13 - 00:36:29:03
Speaker 1
Like I didn't really do it because I was with some other friends just playing other games. Then I did meet with two publishers that I set up ahead of time, but I have a really good play testing session, so I think in the future I'd like to go. I'm a I'm like, not the best with like even though I said, I'm like charismatic and social.

00:36:29:03 - 00:36:33:23
Speaker 1
I'm not the best with like events with tons of people.

00:36:34:04 - 00:36:37:03
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, yeah, I can get really tired.

00:36:37:04 - 00:36:39:05
Speaker 1
I get a war out.

00:36:39:09 - 00:37:18:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's super normal. I recently actually learned the trick for that last time I was at Essen because it just tires you out. And what I learned is a lot of that comes from the sound, the noise. And I was told that like wearing earplugs can really help with that. Like ones that just block high pitch sound because otherwise like at conventions, sometimes I'll come home and I'll be like, go to the hotel or whatever, and like, my head will be I'll be super exhausted.

00:37:18:14 - 00:37:25:19
Speaker 2
Have you shelves? A lot of games are there. Do you have a lot of prototypes that you stopped working on?

00:37:25:21 - 00:38:04:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think so. I, I think now I have like, yeah, I have a lot. I start thinking about it because I think what I do is maybe it's going back to like, I'm feeling influenced or motivated in the moment. Is like if I put all this work in and I send it out to tons of publishers and a lot of the feedback is whether it's negative or positive, because you can get positive, that's still like, like these ideas, but it's not for us or I think something should be expanded upon.

00:38:05:01 - 00:38:35:22
Speaker 1
Sometimes I feel it's almost easier to start fresh for me than to dive into, like what's I don't know if wrong is the right word. It could be what's wrong with the game or what could be different and more appealing. I don't know if that I don't know exactly why, but I tend to do that. So I think there's some game, there's a few games I say shelved that I believe are still very strong games, but I just haven't found the right home for it.

00:38:36:00 - 00:38:55:19
Speaker 1
So I keep those kind of in my mind almost to a place of like they're shelved. But I don't think there's a couple that I don't think need any more work. But then it's just a matter of if I come across the publisher and I'm talking to them and I look at their catalog and I'm like, this game would I think would fit them, then I'll send it to them.

00:38:55:19 - 00:39:21:05
Speaker 1
But I think there's a few that get shelved that just kind of stay there. And I'm like, These are ready. And there's a few that only the ones I don't go back to. I might not have even pitched, but I might have got very far in the play testing. And then there's a few that I've went and read, changed things, but I think I like to just start fresh with new ideas.

00:39:21:07 - 00:39:44:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's nice. It's nice getting a fresh start, though. Well, also sometimes, sometimes you can. You do need to just push through something. It's just the thing is, you never know. Like, I've met many times and I think I don't think there's a game that I've ever made that hasn't had a point where I've thought this may not go anywhere.

00:39:44:22 - 00:39:46:09
Speaker 2
Like, Yeah.

00:39:46:17 - 00:39:47:05
Speaker 1
for sure.

00:39:47:05 - 00:39:47:10
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:39:47:16 - 00:40:04:02
Speaker 2
Like even even, like published, like Rise of the Devil. I remember it was it was pretty early on. It was like a month and a half into the game when, when I, I realized, yeah, this game is going to like it's good, there's a hook. There's like, I want to keep this game. We're going to, we're going to push through till the end.

00:40:04:04 - 00:40:30:08
Speaker 2
But before that month and a half mark, we'll still like trying different things out. There have definitely been points where I was, where I've been like, Well, this may not go anywhere. It just it might. And very often actually, usually you just don't know when the epiphany moment is going to come. Words like this. Here's the fun thing, you know, or here's, here's the thing.

00:40:30:08 - 00:40:45:20
Speaker 2
And when it happens, it's very good because I don't know if it's the same for you, but I've had several games where it's like, it's not working. It's not working. no, it's good. And then you actually start developing it, you know? Yeah.

00:40:45:22 - 00:41:11:03
Speaker 1
Definitely had those moments. I think there's also ones where it's hard to like let an idea die, especially if it's like a theme you really are attached to. But I think I've gotten better at that process of let's keep trying to make it work. And then if I pitch it and there's very negative feedback, I can I can kill that game design and let it rest in peace.

00:41:11:03 - 00:41:28:06
Speaker 1
And then yeah, because that's hard too, is you talk about like going back to a game, making it better, but probably a lot of designers that have gone back to a game 100 times and it's probably not worth it. And they don't know how to let it go, which I think can also be really hard.

00:41:28:14 - 00:41:29:01
Speaker 2
totally.

00:41:29:02 - 00:41:50:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. It's a bit of everything for me. It's I think it's hard to know, you know, unless you're playing the game and it's working really well. It's the thing about board game hobby is there's so many different types of games that there's, it's not a formula to say that this idea will work or not work.

00:41:50:15 - 00:42:24:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get asked very often just, just this week a really good game designer. I played his game and he asked me afterwards. He was like, in, in like your honest opinion, you think this is publishable? Do you think do you think that it's worth pushing forward? And that that is a question that I think I'll never say yes or no to because like, yeah, I think it's and that game specifically, it had a lot of good things going for it.

00:42:24:11 - 00:42:44:17
Speaker 2
So I guess I guess I'll say I'll either say yes or like probably maybe, you know, because it's the sort of thing where if you do push and like keep looking for solutions, you're probably you might find it, you know, But if you don't, then you definitely won't. So it's like, do you want to or not?

00:42:45:07 - 00:43:10:19
Speaker 1
something really interesting you just said about that is I think I used to be like that a lot. Like asking people, you know, is this good enough or is it not? And I think I'm starting to get away from that because I've realized with the games I've signed that like some of it's been the the squeaky wheel gets the grease and it's like some people have been like you pitched it to that many people before you found a place for it.

00:43:10:19 - 00:43:44:22
Speaker 1
It's like, yeah, like I did a lot of work because I believed in it. And I think I think you do it enough. Any creative thing you will find out through yourself or people's reactions in the journey if it needs to keep being pushed forward or like kind of die. I think just to ask somebody else who isn't, you know, the you it isn't the creator of this idea to just say, is this good enough or not?

00:43:45:00 - 00:44:13:02
Speaker 1
It it kind of makes sense to me why you said, like, I don't really want to say either way. I think part of it is I think your identity goes into your creativity. And so part of my games and making an impression on whatever publishers wanted to work with me is pushing that idea and believing in it. I think if you're honest with yourself, you'll see when like this idea is not going to work, I can try something else.

00:44:13:04 - 00:44:34:11
Speaker 1
Or you'll see when I asked those people and they said I don't know, I don't think it's really that good, then you get it published because only when you play with people that aren't designing games and you ask them those types of questions, I've noticed there can be, even if they're friends, there can be a lot of criticism.

00:44:34:13 - 00:45:03:00
Speaker 1
They don't mean it in a bad way, but it's because if people aren't making games, they can't see them. Your game is just deeper and pain, you know, it's it's not if they can't buy it in the store, it's not a published game yet. And the goal is to get it published. But the point is they might be persuaded to say sell their influence, to say it's not the same gaming experience as a super popular game with beautiful components.

00:45:03:00 - 00:45:09:18
Speaker 1
It's actually published and finished. So they can almost say like, I don't know if it's help. That kind of makes sense.

00:45:09:20 - 00:45:40:15
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Absolutely. They also, like people can't have your vision for something. So like, I tend to I think one of the things I've learned about creativity is that I do tend to like kind of keep quiet about it, but like I'm not too interested in. I'm more interested in seeing the way the game works than like hearing like, I'm I'm always happy to hear, it's good, you know, I like it.

00:45:40:15 - 00:46:08:23
Speaker 2
Enjoyed it, or yeah, I'm also happy to hear I didn't like it because of this and this, but I don't think I think I try to be like a step removed from that, you know, like as much as I can and because if you're like, you don't want the good things or the bad things to you too hard in either direction, you know?

00:46:09:01 - 00:46:10:07
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:46:10:09 - 00:46:33:16
Speaker 1
And it's easier to see like if you play test my game, it's easier to see if you're having a good time or not. Then even if you give some good advice to then to just be like, I like it or I don't like it, you know. Yeah. And so I think, yeah, I'm learning that too, is to step back a bit and just kind of watch.

00:46:33:18 - 00:46:47:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. And sometimes I don't even need people will be like, like I'll give you a list of all my feedback and I always take it, but sometimes I'm not even always looking for feedback. I'm just wanting to watch. Yeah, yeah.

00:46:47:22 - 00:47:10:17
Speaker 2
See how it works. And, and like if you see, I don't know, because for me it is, it is an experience that I'm looking for. Like sometimes I'll, you know, I'll know this is what I'm going for. And then if even if somebody is in it with a different expectation, like, you know, there's, there are, they're going like this clashes with theme.

00:47:10:19 - 00:47:57:12
Speaker 2
Sometimes I'm okay with that, you know, sometimes I'm not good enough for for that needing to be thematic I'm more looking for my my vision for the game or my feeling that, that's, I'm looking for that. I want to, to have in that final game and people can't see it like, I can't imagine what you're, what your final thing that you wanted to become is I can just, I can just give you feedback on this as it is in the moment, but very often you're, you're not looking at the thing in the moment.

00:47:57:12 - 00:48:07:06
Speaker 2
Like the thing in the moment is on a journey to become the thing that you're, that you're ultimately going for. I don't know if any of that makes sense either.

00:48:07:08 - 00:48:07:19
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:48:07:21 - 00:48:32:14
Speaker 1
I like to. I like to sometimes tell play testers ahead of time what I'm looking for or at the end the type of feedback because you kind of help them because sometimes, like I said before, you just want to see how they're playing. And I love my friends that are willing to play test with me, but because they've done a lot, sometimes they're expecting that they're supposed to like, tell me something at the end.

00:48:32:14 - 00:48:58:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. And sometimes I'm like, It's okay. I just liked watching and seeing how it worked. Sometimes see them thinking like, he wants feedback, so what should I tell them? Yeah, And yeah, it's hard to know. I mean, you still always take all feedback because you could find something good within that. But yeah. Yeah. I don't know how to tell when a game's ever truly finished.

00:48:58:06 - 00:49:17:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Well some sometimes. I don't know. I've had that happen a couple of times where I'm like, this is, this is it. Let's move on. I think for me it's when I have like five plateaus where nothing changes and we're I'm, I'm happy with it.

00:49:17:03 - 00:49:19:09
Speaker 1
So that makes sense. Yeah.

00:49:19:11 - 00:49:53:06
Speaker 2
I, I think that would be like the sort of pragmatic way of just you find that you're not making changes to it because otherwise early on you're making a lot of changes, right? From it has to be it can be completely different. what would be your advice to, to somebody who's, who wants to make games but hasn't yet?

00:49:53:08 - 00:50:16:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean first I would just say to do it, start somewhere. But some people might now feel overwhelmed and not know where to start. You talked about looking at games you really like and trying to make variants of those games. I think that's always good because you already have a set of rules and you already have components.

00:50:16:04 - 00:50:42:18
Speaker 1
The easiest way is like, can you make a game with a standard deck of cards and then can you write on a few things and add in a board or rules? But it still all works around ice or cards? Yeah, I think like if you play a lot of games you can steal ideas from ones and obviously further down the road you want to try to be a bit more original.

00:50:42:18 - 00:51:22:02
Speaker 1
But every game is, you know, we talk about my sorrows, it's a dinosaur theme. Dinosaurs are pretty typical and then it's mashing trick taking in puzzle, laying together, which either of those on their own are new. So I think it's trying to go at it and do it, trying to. That's that's a tough question. As Yeah, I think if you're if you have a good idea and certain rules aren't working, try to find I know a game that has a similar rule to this and what are they doing different?

00:51:22:04 - 00:51:51:23
Speaker 1
You know, I don't know. I don't know the best example. But you know, if you're making a deck building game and you have an issue with yeah, I even have the best example right now, but like how many cards you should draw, look at like what a lot of standard ones are doing. And it's probably a really simple bad example, but the easiest is just playing games and then trying to mimic them.

00:51:52:01 - 00:51:52:18
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:51:52:19 - 00:51:54:00
Speaker 1
Maybe you have a better answer.

00:51:54:01 - 00:52:24:08
Speaker 2
No, no, that's perfect. That's perfect. Yeah, totally. And I think all all of those things learn from other games. Just do. It also is great because so many people stop at just doing it because. Yeah. Yeah. Well I think also with with things not being good, I think that's such a big part of any creative thing is learn that's not non good things and make them better.

00:52:24:10 - 00:52:46:22
Speaker 1
That's, that's part of like I'm just doing it is like it sounds so simple, but it's really like you think really profound because in high school I used to skateboard a lot and it's like, you can't do a trick until you try to do it. Like you can watch a million videos. Then also a skateboarding is you're going to fall over a lot and hurt yourself.

00:52:46:22 - 00:53:11:17
Speaker 1
And so I think that helped me back in skateboarding from trying crazy things. But I think even in a creative avenue, I think it's a fail fear of failure, right? To think like I'm going to make a bad game. And it's like, well, you, you probably will at first, but I think that's even it ties back to the idea of when I asked about how do you know when a game is done?

00:53:11:18 - 00:53:56:13
Speaker 1
Is this idea of like, did I make a good or bad game? And it's kind of like, did you make something that you enjoy that you're proud of? Because someone will always say, This could be better, which I think the game is very far developed. It's better to say this could be different if you want to make that change, because so many people, I think as creative things, I think you're done when as the creator you say you're done and it's you'll learn along the way if you should have put more effort in or if you should have took more advice or you should have tried new ideas, but you just have to go for

00:53:56:13 - 00:54:08:18
Speaker 1
it. You have to try it. And then you also have to say like, because that's the thing is you'll never get to the pitching phase to learn about that type of skill set until you say that your game is ready. You know what I mean?

00:54:08:20 - 00:54:11:00
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:54:11:02 - 00:54:13:07
Speaker 1
So just got to do it.

00:54:13:09 - 00:54:36:11
Speaker 2
All right. Perfect. Well, I think that we can wrap it up here. Thanks so much for your time. And I really I've enjoyed playing the games that I've played with you of yours and really looking forward to playing service and and seeing what else you come up with. Maybe even Co-Designing one day.

00:54:36:13 - 00:54:49:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.