37: Publishing and Pitching with Zev Shlasinger

Zev Shlasinger has been in the hobby game industry for almost 30 years. He founded Z-Man Games in 1999, sold it in 2011, then worked for the new owners until mid-January 2016. At the end of January, he took the position of Director of Board Games with Wizkids. Some of the titles you might be familiar with are: Pandemic, Fantasy Realms, Agricola, Sidereal Confluence, Clash of Cultures, Merchants & Marauders, Tales of the Arabian Nights, Shadow Hunters, Arboretum, Tragedy Looper, Grave Robbers from Outer Space, Tournament at Camelot, Super Skill Pinball, and a host of others.

Check out Zev's new publishing company Play to Z here!

Chapters

• 1:17 Zev's Board Game Journey
• 5:29 Z-man and Pandemic
• 12:34 Pitching to Publishers
• 20:34 Play to Z Games
• 30:25 23 Knives
• 34:18 Why self-publish?
• 43:25 Components
• 56:17 Tales of the Arabian Nights
• 1:02:00 Crowdfunding

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;24;18
Speaker 1
So when I tell people that you have tell me is a huge output. And for me, I find it hard to restrain myself to that much because when I was man, I was doing 25 to 30 games a year in the last few years, and I think we even top 35 one year. And then with with kids, we were frequently at 20 to 25.

00;00;24;20 - 00;00;41;21
Speaker 1
So for me, when I say, okay, yeah, I'm dropping down and I'm doing 8 to 10, everyone goes, Holy cow, that's still a lot. I'm like, Really? Hey, that's like f I have to stop myself from doing more, you know, because I can do 8 to 10. So I find it funny. But yes, I think everyone's mileage varies.

00;00;41;21 - 00;00;56;15
Speaker 1
It's just that I was always used to doing so many and it was just it just came naturally to me. Honestly.

00;00;56;17 - 00;01;17;06
Speaker 2
So tell me how you first got into bird games. You've been in it for a very long time. From what I read online, at least you found on demand games in 1999, sold it in 2011. You've been with with kids. It's been more than 25 years, I'm assuming, because I'm assuming it probably started before that.

00;01;17;08 - 00;01;48;28
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think yeah, even before that. So and okay, I've always been a board gamer and stuff and you know, I played RPGs and stuff like that, but I became more into games when I probably got into Magic. The Gathering in 94 because I started going to conventions and then by going to conventions, I expanded my repertoire of newer games that came out not mostly screens, but we started to play some board games more here and there.

00;01;49;01 - 00;02;17;14
Speaker 1
But I was also I was a I don't know if I want to say a professional demonstrator, but I was part of a group called Our Team Circle where we demonstrated collectible card games from 95 on, I'll say, and we did that for a few years. Few years we were very much sought after because we were really good and there were times where people said we knew their games better than their own stats.

00;02;17;17 - 00;02;40;17
Speaker 1
That's how good we were. And we I would be a demonstrator for many different collectible card games. We had a team of about five or six regulars. We had magic pro tour judges. I was a pro tour judge one time in their first pro tour in New York, 96 plus. I did tournaments before that, but we had magic pro tour judges.

00;02;40;17 - 00;03;10;26
Speaker 1
I demonstrated a bunch of games and each team member also did at least two or more games. We would get sent to conventions and and given, you know, and just yeah, just meeting people left and right and that I guess my first actual pay thing is for a year I was the promotional director because of my demonstration. I was a promotional director for Demon Blade Games, which was a miniature company.

00;03;10;28 - 00;03;40;06
Speaker 1
They had a miniature game called Shot Force. And basically I headed the the promotional stuff, mainly demonstrating at shows, right. Going to shows, setting up demos and so on. So I did that for a year. So you could say that was about 97, I think. So if you want to count that, it's not the demo. The other demo so far, CGS, if you want to count the that ones, I've been doing this since 1997.

00;03;40;08 - 00;04;03;24
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I but the thing is we go to a lot of shows and Shadow Fists. That was one of my favorite CPGs. And in the evenings my friend and I, we would pull out our shadow office cards and honestly, every show we went to, people would say, I didn't know people were playing Shadow office. I would have brought my cards and this was about a year of constantly hearing this.

00;04;03;24 - 00;04;17;21
Speaker 1
And then I turned to my friend, this guy Paul, who I always hung out with and stuff. We used to go to a lot of shows together. I would say, you know what? If we what if we brought this game back as a given? The company went out of business in 97. They did a core game, two expansions.

00;04;17;23 - 00;04;43;07
Speaker 1
They went bankrupt in 97. And I said, What if we bring this game back? This is around 1998, I think. And you know, doing, you know, trying to find out, you know, meeting the people who own the game, making deals and so on. So, yes, I phoned in in 1999 and signed the game and we released the first starter set and first expansion together at Gen Con 2020.

00;04;43;10 - 00;05;01;26
Speaker 1
So that was I guess the first major appearance of Z man, although I believe in earlier 2020 we were going to some shows teasing that we were going to rerelease this game. I remember going to a Dragon Con in that year. We probably went to Origins in that year. What had a booth.

00;05;01;28 - 00;05;03;15
Speaker 2
You mean 2000? Probably.

00;05;03;15 - 00;05;28;29
Speaker 1
Or I think I said 2020. Did you just heard it in my head because I went 1990. Yes. Sorry. 2000. Yeah. yeah. 1999. And then 2000 is when I premiered Scholz's. But yeah, so doing that steadily for, for many years. And then, you know, we got into other types of products afterwards but so yeah, you could say over 25 years I've been in the industry.

00;05;29;06 - 00;05;51;21
Speaker 2
Yeah. And you've found like extreme success. I feel like Zeman Like obviously with pandemic, I think pandemic was a game that really changed. Yes, changed games, at least for me. It's that's the first game that I'm aware of that's co-operative or that's like massively successful co-operative. Yeah, I.

00;05;51;23 - 00;06;16;17
Speaker 1
Might have been the and I don't want to say it's the first, but certainly one of the earliest I think Food Co-operative Games, meaning there was no trailer element, there might have been one other, you know, honestly I don't remember that. I believe there was a Lord of the Rings game. I think it was a under Tunisia design where I think it was co-operative, but I don't remember if it was also all co-operative.

00;06;16;20 - 00;06;42;14
Speaker 1
And not that there was a mechanic where somebody could go against the team. So I'm not sure of that. But certainly pandemic was probably the first three that were just fully co-operative. I think before that the, the game that I know people talked about, a lot of that had co-operative but with a potential trailer was shadows over Camelot by days of wonder.

00;06;42;17 - 00;07;02;18
Speaker 1
I think that was the game that was going around, I think a few years earlier that people would be able to see as a another co-operative type game. But as far as I know, pandemic was probably one of the first or close to being the first. That was all co-operative. You either all win or lose, there was no traitor, there was no backstabbing or anything like that.

00;07;02;18 - 00;07;04;27
Speaker 1
You had to work together to win the game.

00;07;04;29 - 00;07;27;28
Speaker 2
Yeah. And at the same time it's like it's such a to me, it's such a classic clean design that inspired so many other games. Like especially, I think that that mechanic of shuffling the cards that that have you know after and after the epidemic and and pandemic is one of those games that it always felt like you'd always get to the end.

00;07;27;28 - 00;07;35;05
Speaker 2
And it feels like it'd be unknown to the very end whether you're going to make it or not.

00;07;35;07 - 00;08;11;00
Speaker 1
Which with there was always that surprise factor, right? That was it was always amazing to as it come down really to the last, you know, one or two car draws sometimes. So it was really down to the wire where it's like, wow, can we make it or not? You know, we have to do this. But there were also times where you knew you were going to lose early on because of just a terrible, terrible set up and a terrible stack of cards on the top of the infection deck, for example, that was just too difficult to overcome.

00;08;11;02 - 00;08;36;01
Speaker 1
But I think part of the success of pandemic despite that, also because the games were relatively fast, if I recall, shelves of a catalog was about a two hour game where pandemic could be average 20 to 40 minutes. So sure, if you had a bad run of luck, usually in the five or 10 minutes, I mean, it wasn't often, but it could happen.

00;08;36;08 - 00;08;55;28
Speaker 1
It's like, okay, well, that was only five or 10 minutes. Let's start again. Yeah. And that's what happened. And also what aided the fact because of the the shorter playing time was even if people won or lost in that 20, 30 minute timeframe, it was short of they say, man, let's play this again and see what happens.

00;08;56;01 - 00;09;35;13
Speaker 1
Right. And I think that added to the success of the game cos of course the, the uniqueness of it, the theme, the AI, the idea, how it all worked out, the that Yeah. That shuffling mechanic when you got an infection. That was my favorite thing of course because that was so nerve wracking and heart palpitating thing and that's actually what led me to say yes, the game is what we played, tested it, you know, when that first epidemic came up and we had to reveal where the city were going to get that, My players stood up off their chairs and I was like, for a game to get a reaction like that, I got to

00;09;35;13 - 00;09;50;18
Speaker 1
do it, you know? And yeah, that was I knew that I people tried to talk me out of it because they said nobody wants a cognitive game. That's why there aren't any and so on. And I said, Yeah, okay, I get it. But I need to do this game is really good.

00;09;50;21 - 00;10;03;21
Speaker 2
Yeah, definitely. And it's it feels, it feels like a classic. Just I can't imagine somebody telling you not to sign it, you know.

00;10;03;24 - 00;10;24;15
Speaker 1
Right. Well, right. It's the newness, right. People are afraid. They know what you know. You taking a risk. This is not been done before. Maybe there's a reason, right? That's what people like to say. Maybe there's a reason why. And usually there is a rightness to that attitude where they go, yeah, maybe because, you know, the idea is so dumb or so so risky or whatever that you don't want to do it.

00;10;24;15 - 00;10;45;15
Speaker 1
But it was I was at a point where I could take risks and I said, Yeah, I'm going to try it out. And obviously it worked out. But I remember even at the time there were people, you know, not liking the game because they said, this is not a game, it's a puzzle. You know, I got that many times in the beginning and it's like, Well, all right, then you can you're free to to believe that.

00;10;45;15 - 00;11;08;21
Speaker 1
And sure, there is a puzzling aspect to I would say most cooperative games probably have a puzzling puzzle aspect to it because, you know, you're trying to figure out what to do in the most optimum and efficient way. And it is solving puzzles there. But I think there's a lot more to it. And thankfully the players thought so too.

00;11;08;23 - 00;11;15;01
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah, definitely. It's definitely proved itself.

00;11;15;04 - 00;11;15;20
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;11;16;08 - 00;11;16;25
Speaker 2
yeah.

00;11;16;28 - 00;11;27;07
Speaker 1
Yeah, you're right. In the end it has shown that it whatever people had thought of it, it was enough goodness in it that people said yeah, this is a game, we need that.

00;11;27;10 - 00;11;39;26
Speaker 2
Yeah. Total. And like all of the everything leader, you know, the expansions, the legacy pandemic legacy that's another another crazy you know game changing thing. Yeah.

00;11;39;28 - 00;12;03;13
Speaker 1
I mean that was definitely after I sold it. So I did sell the company in 2011, but I worked for them or four and a half years and it was the new owner that came up with that because it was after the bones of risk legacy. Yeah, The owner, she had contacted Rob Davy of that and hooked up with Matt and then they worked together.

00;12;03;13 - 00;12;22;21
Speaker 1
So yeah, it was a brilliant idea to try that. But, but yeah, I have to admit that that wasn't me. I did a play, tested a month and a half of the like, you know, one one month and a half was another month of the game. But I actually said, I don't want to play test because I want to be surprised.

00;12;22;23 - 00;12;34;01
Speaker 1
So I pulled myself out of that. But I was getting reports on how things were going and little tidbits here and there. But yeah, that that was that was a game changer as well. That was amazing.

00;12;34;08 - 00;12;54;01
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. What can you tell me about the pitching process when people pitched games to you, what did you do? You immediately you just play the game to see if you enjoy it, what is, what's a good pitch and yeah.

00;12;54;04 - 00;13;16;10
Speaker 1
So far so there's many different ways to pitch to me, right? One of them is on my website we have a designer form our pitch form, whatever, where a designer can fill it out and send me information. And usually, you know, we ask basic information how many players, how long is it the name of the game? Tell me a little bit about the game.

00;13;16;12 - 00;13;36;16
Speaker 1
I believe we also now ask for we ask for a sell sheet and if available, an intro video. I think the intro video is becoming more and more ubiquitous because it really helps solidify what is shown on the sell sheet and so on. So yeah, that's one way to pitch me, you know, pitch like that. I have to look at the sell sheet.

00;13;36;18 - 00;13;59;13
Speaker 1
If I, if there's a video, I look to see if I see something there, then I will contact the designer and I'll first, if I don't like it, I'll see. Sorry. There's not for me for whatever reason, what not. But if I want to see further, yes, I will either ask for a rule book or I will ask to set up a playtest session.

00;13;59;16 - 00;14;19;26
Speaker 1
Usually, virtually most likely it's sometimes simple topia. Sometimes the the designer has not done that and they'll have to send me a physical prototype. And sure, I accept those. It's just harder for me to test. You know, they get together. I usually try to do it at a convention. I bring contacts with me and test them there. So that's one way.

00;14;19;26 - 00;14;41;07
Speaker 1
So it's a virtual pitch when someone emails me, they send me the info I like and I like what I see enough to say, okay, let's go further the other way. The pitch is when I set up a meeting or a walk in. If it happens at a convention and that's usually again, someone will drop, will send me, will give me a sell sheet, I'll look it over.

00;14;41;09 - 00;15;06;13
Speaker 1
If it looks interesting from there I'll say, okay, you know, let's pitch it. Or if they made a an appointment beforehand, then I'm expecting to look at it physically at a convention usually, and I'll play you a plea sometimes. Well, there are times when when they explain the game, I can immediately say, No, that's not for me, or I'll well, let me play a couple of rounds.

00;15;06;13 - 00;15;32;01
Speaker 1
And unless it's a short game, I only play probably a few rounds and easily. Then I can tell whether I like it or not or if it's for me or not. Or I might say, you know what, I'll, I'll deep dive into this myself. I'll me a prototype or if you can't, again, tweets or whatnot, I'll, I'll try to plead with my team to get a better feel for the game.

00;15;32;03 - 00;15;49;26
Speaker 1
So so a couple of processes but usually starts with a with a sell sheet and or an intro video. And then finally getting to play it either virtually, you know, a few rounds, sometimes a whole game, whatnot, but usually a few rounds and or in person at a convention.

00;15;49;28 - 00;16;11;17
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's great. There's I feel like that's a very progressive look at pitching because so many especially some of the some of the big names that I've pitched to like large publishing companies, they would always require a physical copy of a physical prototype and don't they don't even want to look at like a tabletop simulator mud or or a table top.

00;16;11;17 - 00;16;14;19
Speaker 2
I found many publishers.

00;16;14;19 - 00;16;41;23
Speaker 1
I mean, to answer it gets a little it's not as fun. Obviously not. You're missing the face stuff and so on. But sure, I can get the idea of the social interaction as much, although it helps when, you know, we're doing tweets, but we're talking via, you know, discord or Skype or Google Meet or Zoom, whatever. So at least there's some interaction that way rather than just, you know, points with no talking or anything.

00;16;41;26 - 00;16;55;11
Speaker 1
So I think it helps a little bit. Yeah, I know. I guess also during the pandemic, right, it was that was the only way to do it. And I thought in the beginning I thought, wow, this is going to cut down pitching like crazy. But pitching increased.

00;16;55;14 - 00;16;56;17
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;16;56;19 - 00;17;21;05
Speaker 1
And I think the virtual was help. I look, do I love a physical prototype? Yes. But I'm also I'm I'm I'm the day to day person here. I don't have a dedicated group to physically play test. That's why I say usually at a convention I bring a bunch of prototypes and I try to knock them out at a convention there once in a while I'll get some friends together and we'll be able to play tests.

00;17;21;05 - 00;17;56;08
Speaker 1
In fact, I think this Wednesday I finally, after months, getting together with three or four of the guys and I'm just going to play through a bunch of physical prototypes that I have. So yes, I prefer the physical thing, but yeah, I won't say no to the virtual. I think I think it has a value to it. And at worst, if you like enough of what you saw virtually, then you can ask for a physical prototype and say, okay, hey, I want to play this in person with it, with my team, with my friends, or at a convention or so on, and then get a, you know, a real world feel to it.

00;17;56;08 - 00;17;59;18
Speaker 1
But yeah, I don't discount the, the virtual aspect of it.

00;17;59;20 - 00;18;30;14
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah. That's great because for me, as you know, as a game designer, I almost the only time that I make physical prototypes is for conventions or if a publisher asks for one. and because I started making games in 2018, so like the first before the pandemic, I would make physical prototypes of all of the games. But then during the pandemic, I found a tabletop simulator and it's so for me, it's it's become like second nature.

00;18;30;14 - 00;18;31;21
Speaker 2
It's.

00;18;31;24 - 00;18;57;02
Speaker 1
It aid me. I mean, I think, yeah, people should learn the code. Look, I teaching designs where the designer didn't know how to do. Yes, but I have at least one friend who does test models for me. So if it's a relatively simple game, actually, you've done some hard games for me. So I won't say just simple game is I tell the designer, Give me your files, I'm going to send them my friend and he's going to test it for me and then I'll be able to play it.

00;18;57;02 - 00;19;24;00
Speaker 1
So this friend of mine really has helped me a lot in and designers by getting teams versions up. But yes, it would behoove you to learn how to to get a rudimentary design up there. And the more you can do, you know, getting the snap points, getting the, you know, to cut down as much silliness as possible so that it's experience is not so frustrating.

00;19;24;02 - 00;19;42;17
Speaker 1
That's I think that's what you have to look into because I can see it. I can see people just saying, no, I just don't like how these virtual things play. It's it's too fiddly to too much, you know, too much work. And I got in all the code, all the commands, and you, you know, and look and for me it's sometimes hard.

00;19;42;17 - 00;20;17;16
Speaker 1
So I have to play because I like, I like looking at everything but what's right. I'm constantly moving the table around. I have to zoom in here, but then I got to zoom out and then go to another place and zoom in. So I do miss some information, but I'm not playing to win. But sometimes I am playing the breaks of game, so I do want to see what else is going on and what other people and have and see if I can do things to to mess, you know, to mess with the game, to see if it if it strong enough to withstand someone playing, you know, gracefully or differently than probably what was

00;20;17;16 - 00;20;34;06
Speaker 1
expected. So that's hard for me to test because I can't see all the info. So like my fingers, like almost always on the off button so I can, you know, so I could see everything in the you know, close up, zooming in, zooming out, zooming and zooming out kind of thing.

00;20;34;08 - 00;20;52;01
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Can you, can you tell me about, play to see your, your new publishing company? what sorts of games you're publishing, what you're, you're going for with it. You've got, you've got a great team. I have to look at the website.

00;20;52;03 - 00;21;17;01
Speaker 1
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, we're basically, when I left with kids, I had a choice. I was looking for work with another established company while people were saying I should start a new one. I really did not want to start a new company because I didn't like all the day to day stuff. Part of why I sold Z Man was because, you know, I was doing the customer service, I was doing the sales calls, I was doing the bookkeeping and so on.

00;21;17;01 - 00;21;38;18
Speaker 1
And so and it just, you know, I just didn't want to do it all. So I was not looking forward to it. But I said, All right, I will look down the pad and people interested in backing me. So I said, okay, we're going to go to pass here. If Geoffrey comes first, that's what I'll do. So it was either finding a job with an established company or starting my own company.

00;21;38;18 - 00;22;00;17
Speaker 1
And of course it worked out that it was my own company that that's got to the end goals, you know, first. Yeah, we're a bunch of industry veterans. These are friends of mine, you know, people I've known for a long, long time. There's, you know, designers and other publishers and some content creators and even a retailer convention manager.

00;22;00;20 - 00;22;22;10
Speaker 1
So yeah, it's a great team. But again, I had mentioned earlier that I am the day to day person, but now I have a a team that I can go to. If I have a question on something, I can ask them about it. Like if I have a content creation or social media thing, I've got content creators I can go to and say, Hey, what's the best way to do this?

00;22;22;12 - 00;22;38;24
Speaker 1
Right? Is there design stuff? I can go to the designers on my team and say, Hey, what do you think of this? And then, of course, I hope they won't be playtest and so on. So that's good too. So it's nice to have a sounding board where I can get advice, where when I was Zeeman, there was nothing like that.

00;22;38;24 - 00;23;07;27
Speaker 1
It really just was me and my sounding board was maybe I'd call a friend once in a while. Yeah, when I'd go to conventions, that's where I got a lot of face to face things there. But I also played as he started last year by last October. So we're just over a year old. And my philosophy is pretty much the same as what I have at Simon, which is trying to do games that while me some really fun, unique, engaging games, I like games that keep you interested even when it's not your turn.

00;23;07;29 - 00;23;27;22
Speaker 1
That's very important to me. You know, I don't want where it's like, Hey, I'm going to check Facebook, let me know when it's my turn. You know, I don't like that. You know what people are constantly checking their phone and and stuff. I want people involved and immersed in the game while they're playing. And again, even when it's not their turn.

00;23;27;28 - 00;23;54;08
Speaker 1
So I try to look for that. I also think there are other values. You know, I'm looking to make connections with international partners, so we are doing some localization in Z. Man. It was roughly about 5050, I would say with with kids it was about 95% original, 5% vocalizations with played. He I think it's even a smaller percent.

00;23;54;09 - 00;24;23;16
Speaker 1
It's probably 90 and two. We did release one game just just just now like a few days ago Euro which is from an Italian publisher. So that's a localization. We are in talks with a couple of other publishers for some of their games for 2025, but it's going to be a much smaller amount where, you know, more focus on original designs.

00;24;23;19 - 00;24;38;12
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I'm looking for while looking for and I won't know. You know, people say, what do you look for? I go, I'm looking for a while. I won't know until I see it. But then I could say, you know, there are there are good games where I'll say, No, it's not for me. And it's hard because it's good.

00;24;38;19 - 00;25;04;04
Speaker 1
But they're just, you know, not they don't they don't rise to in my estimation or I feel I can't make it rise above all the other stuff, all the other games that are releasing. Remember, there's about four, 5000 games releasing every year. You know, I have to see what can I do? You know, I have to find a games that I feel I can help make that rise above all that.

00;25;04;04 - 00;25;19;23
Speaker 1
And you know, I'm and it could be just a little hook or major hook or uniqueness or something that says, yeah, all right, I can work with this, you know, will it work or not? That's obviously up to the customers. But that that's pretty much what I'm looking for.

00;25;19;26 - 00;25;43;06
Speaker 2
Yeah. that's. That's a big ask, but also it's, it's, it's great. You're following it sounds like you're following, you know, what you actually like and the games that you like and for you to be wowed. and I think putting yourself as kind of your own customer, you know, you.

00;25;43;08 - 00;26;02;14
Speaker 1
Yeah, pretty much a game that I'd like to see play that I'd like to play. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, and again, it's not always what everyone else wants to play, but, you know, I can't you know, I can't I can't figure that out. Right. I can't 100% please everyone and say, yep, this is the game everyone's going to want to play it.

00;26;02;14 - 00;26;21;08
Speaker 1
Just have to I have to enjoy it first and okay, I think this is I think this is something that people would like to play, you know, very rarely, once in a while I've played games where things that I didn't I dislike games that I were that I was about, but a lot of my playing testers loved and the game did very well.

00;26;21;08 - 00;26;46;00
Speaker 1
So it's like, okay, I wouldn't have done it had I not been trying to go over my own bias and, you know, and listen to a bunch of my testers who were pretty much positive on a game. So I have to keep that in mind as well. So even though I'm the final arbiter of it, there are times where if enough people really say they like this game, I should do it.

00;26;46;03 - 00;27;06;17
Speaker 1
I try to go beyond my own bias or whatnot and okay, maybe I'll take a chance with it. So it was easier. Obviously, with the success of Z Man, where I had more opportunity to take chances, I have to be more careful, would play to Z because we're just getting into the the industry. We just started releasing games.

00;27;06;17 - 00;27;22;17
Speaker 1
We've released the two games so far. We got two more. The middle of this month. So I think until we start developing a name and also getting success, I do have to be somewhat careful as to what risks I take, you know, what games I do.

00;27;22;20 - 00;27;27;15
Speaker 2
Yeah. And you're you're not using crowdfunding right. You're going straight to.

00;27;27;18 - 00;27;56;08
Speaker 1
Each are but not completely so done to campaigns so far. We did it for our actually our very first game ascending Empire Zone, this edition of did that back in February. It funded it was great it's on though it's on the boat so hopefully we will start fulfilling in December. So I'm very happy for that really great game Forex game an amazing game and.

00;27;56;08 - 00;27;58;04
Speaker 2
There's victory in it, right?

00;27;58;06 - 00;27;59;08
Speaker 1
I'm sorry.

00;27;59;10 - 00;28;01;22
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;28;01;24 - 00;28;26;07
Speaker 1
So I dislike calling it because I think it's a misnomer. It's not a dexterity forex game, it's a forex game with one dexterity element. Yeah. And we've also mitigated that by having a rule saying, okay, if you don't want to do this, do it this way without dexterity. And basically the dexterity is flicking your starships to get to, you know, or surround the enemy ship or something like that.

00;28;26;07 - 00;29;02;11
Speaker 1
And there's mitigating factors for it. So you don't need to be an amazing flicker, for example. But that's how we simulated movement within the game. And that's and we're still doing a late pledging on that even though because the games are on the water. So I haven't locked in. I mean, I've locked in all the orders there, but we've been getting new orders here and there and then we just finished a couple of months ago, 23 knives, which is a three day player social manipulation game set in the time of Caesar Rome, which is really just a fun, different type of game.

00;29;02;11 - 00;29;23;09
Speaker 1
And again, it keeps you engaged because, you know, people are swaying you. They're trying to change your allegiance. I call it social manipulation because you start out with one allegiance, but you can sway yourself and or other players can sway you to a different allegiance. So you have to constantly manage that. And that is at the printer right now.

00;29;23;09 - 00;29;45;28
Speaker 1
So there's that and then and those were Kickstarter ones, but we're actually about to announce a game found, I think this week, next week at the latest. But we're going to announce a new campaign on Game Sound for a game. I don't want to say it now, but it's a game that I did. A man, we're bringing it back and I'm very, very excited for it.

00;29;46;01 - 00;30;05;10
Speaker 1
So but not all the games are going to be that the two games that we so the games that are released now King's coalition and you know those were not crowdfunded in the middle of the month we got links L Y and X and colliders that was not crowdfunded in December. We have better letters or word game, not crowdfunded.

00;30;05;10 - 00;30;19;07
Speaker 1
So we're only doing probably, you know, two or three campaigns, maybe three is what we're shooting for, possibly for a year. But we're doing the other half of the catalog will not be crowdfunded.

00;30;19;09 - 00;30;50;02
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome. I love also, I love your pitch of 23 knives had like three different hooks in it. Fit with it. Just when you say the name with the theme 23 Knives and Caesar is immediately something that gets gets my attention. And then the, you know, the mechanic, which is social manipulation. There's also immediately when you said it, I'm like, is that deduction, is that so good?

00;30;50;06 - 00;31;07;20
Speaker 1
Is that a social deduction? Fan? So when it was pitched to me, it was, you know, they mentioned it as deduction. I was like, and I've told my friend who told me about it, I said, you know, I don't like social deduction more. I've had enough of it. And I could go into that whole story. But it's the same.

00;31;07;20 - 00;31;32;12
Speaker 1
I've done social deduction games. One of my favorite is Shadowhunters, which I did a segment in with kids. We did Burke's Gambit, which was amazing as a social deduction, but it's not my favorite genre any, any longer and I don't want to do one. So I went into this pitch with like, it's for me. I was like, wait a minute, this is not really.

00;31;32;12 - 00;31;52;26
Speaker 1
So yeah, I mean, sure, you want to know who's on your side or whatnot. And there are other ways to figure out. There's issues you can vote for that can allow you to see who's on your team or who's your opponent possibly. But the fact that, yeah, one of the main mechanics is you are able to change somebody.

00;31;52;26 - 00;32;14;11
Speaker 1
I was like, I that's why I came up with social manipulation and I said, okay, this I could work with. So yeah, 22 knives are really good. And also it has a, a great like a heart palpitating moment as well or a get up off your chair moment where at the end of the game you have to count.

00;32;14;13 - 00;32;35;09
Speaker 1
There's the pull, the Curia, which is an area where people have been playing seat cards, play knives and doves, doves, subtract from the knives. But at the end of the game, we have to count how many total knives are in the Curia. And if there's 23 or more Caesar dies, if there's less than 23, Caesar wins. So that will help determine the victors.

00;32;35;09 - 00;32;53;15
Speaker 1
So that's a moment where, okay, now we're going to figure out what happens. And as you're counting the knives, people like, my God, my God. wow. and I love that. That was to me a great a great moment in the game. And it gave me that pandemic, you know, where's the epidemic stuff going to happen?

00;32;53;18 - 00;32;58;28
Speaker 1
It gave me that sort of feel. But this was just the end game result.

00;32;59;00 - 00;33;13;28
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. that sounds really cool. Really cool. I love I love a reveal like that. I think when it when it works well and everybody's everybody's invested in, is it going to hit that number or not.

00;33;15;13 - 00;33;30;05
Speaker 1
and a lot of times it's funny a lot of people and I've played it many times also where I go, I feel it's going to be this and you're just totally wrong. You helped so many people through this other type of card instead of while you thought you saw more of a different one. So it's like, wow.

00;33;30;05 - 00;33;37;23
Speaker 1
And it's almost always a surprise as to the final result. So, yeah, I just I adore that. That's amazing.

00;33;37;23 - 00;34;02;29
Speaker 2
To me. Yeah, I know a lot of people who listen, a lot of them are game designers mostly, I'd say, but I know a lot of them want to also become publishers or self-publish their own games and most most cases. What what sort of advice would you give? And like, why? Why did you choose to, you know, crowdfund some games and not crowdfund as well?

00;34;04;16 - 00;34;10;13
Speaker 1
okay. What's two separate questions to focus on? First,

00;34;10;15 - 00;34;18;06
Speaker 2
Let's, let's start with just sort of general first time publisher advice you would give.

00;34;18;08 - 00;34;45;16
Speaker 1
Okay. So long has to realize being a designer is not the same as being a publisher. There's two very different skill sets, so you have to really think, can you do it? We're assuming you have the designer skill set because you're having the game and then, you know, you're then you're deciding, okay, I'm going to publish in publishing has its own things there.

00;34;45;23 - 00;35;06;07
Speaker 1
You're going to do art. You have to know art direction. You have to know, you know, hire illustrators, you have to hire graphic designer, you have to find a printer, you have to get quotes, you have to submit spec sheet. So it's a very different skill set. And that's not include the business side of it, right? Where it's like, you know of you to go to through distribution after the fulfillment of a still you got to fulfill.

00;35;06;07 - 00;35;22;28
Speaker 1
So you got to find a fulfillment house. You got to have people who will ship it to you, make sure you get the shipping and that information. And then of course, if you go to distribution, it's like, wow, now you have to deal with distribution. You have to know who to go to, how to get signed up with them and so on.

00;35;22;28 - 00;35;50;28
Speaker 1
So it's a tough, tough route, different skill set, and you just have to be prepared for it. I would say a lot of people are not equipped to do both, meaning design and that and I think they get swamped by the the self-publishing aspect of it. I think that's why over the many, many years, especially as Kickstarter got very popular, you had people who would jump in and say, Hey, we'll take care of a lot of this stuff for you.

00;35;50;28 - 00;36;31;02
Speaker 1
You've had printers come up and say, Hey, we'll take care of your product, will fulfill for you, will produce it for you and so on. And you know, and it might have alleviated some of the stress, I guess, of doing it. So I think the main thing is being prepared, doing your research in in in thinking can you handle all the parts that go into publishing again that go starting from after the design, getting it prepared, you know, getting a product ready with our graphic design and so on, and then doing all the business stuff afterwards.

00;36;31;04 - 00;36;55;19
Speaker 1
So I it's, I guess that would be the biggest advice, right? It would be make sure you understand the scope of what you need to do beyond your designing chops. And if you feel comfortable doing it, if you have the time to do it. I mean, that's another thing. If you have a a day job, you've already spent a lot of time designing while you're doing all this self-publishing stuff.

00;36;55;26 - 00;37;17;24
Speaker 1
You might not be able to design any more until you get this game fully out. Are you prepared for that or can you handle designing, doing a day job designing and doing, you know, prepping to get a game ready for market and then getting it to the market and so on, you know, getting it out there? Yeah, that would be the tough part.

00;37;17;26 - 00;37;38;08
Speaker 1
So that's, that's some of it, you know, and that's probably maybe simplifying. There's probably even more steps. But that would be the the big thing is, you know, do you think you can you know, there's more to it and can you do it? Do you have the time, you have the skill set to do it on your own or find somebody who can help you.

00;37;38;10 - 00;38;06;00
Speaker 1
But again, you're also going to be doing your own invoicing, your own, you know, calls to the retailers or distributors or whatnot, your own customers service. Right. It's something and that's a big thing, right? So what if something's printed and you're missing something but probably going to be the one that's going to have to, you know, fill out those envelopes and fill those and fill the of loops with, you know, the pieces that are missing, addressing them, going in the post office or whatnot and getting them out.

00;38;06;03 - 00;38;26;28
Speaker 1
That's going to eat up your time. Well, it's also going to eat up your cost. You got to figure that out as well, understanding how what to what to set the retail because, you know, people go, look, your Kickstarter, I'm making I'm doing a game, I'm selling you for $50. And I've had many people that said, and I said, What's your production price?

00;38;26;28 - 00;38;46;26
Speaker 1
And people say, okay, it's going to cost me 20, 25 to make $20, 25,000 me And they're happy. They're going, Hey, look, it's $20. I go, I'm making $30 profit, okay, Yes, there's the 10%, there's the fees, you know it out. And so it's not really that. But they're going, hey, I'm making that kind of money. And then you're like, that's great.

00;38;47;04 - 00;39;10;07
Speaker 1
And then go, and do you know that if you sell to distribution, they take 60% off, So your $50 gain, you only get $20. did you say your game is $20 to produce? you just lost money. So, you know, it's, you know, even understanding that that, you know, you're not selling it for full price in the market.

00;39;10;11 - 00;39;31;28
Speaker 1
So I guess that's where you have to decide, am I going to be a crowdfunded only company where. Yep, we're only selling to crowdfunding always at full price, whatever, whatever price you put on. And we're not going to distribution in retail. And once we get our our orders, maybe we'll make a little extra and sell it full price at conventions or after sales or whatnot.

00;39;32;01 - 00;39;53;29
Speaker 1
Fine, that's cool. But it's something to consider. Yeah, I would say that would be the the biggest thing for publishing. If you want to sell, publishers know all the aspects of it, do the research and just know that it is a different beast than just crowdfunding or designing a game, I should say.

00;39;54;02 - 00;39;59;02
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's it's a lot of things. And one and you're also your own investor, you know.

00;39;59;04 - 00;40;37;04
Speaker 1
But, but there is that yes. I mean, look, the good thing with the crowdfunding, right, is you've gotten some money upfront. Yeah. And hopefully it's enough to the assumption is you priced it out, you did everything right. You're not going to lose money off the campaign because your production price is right. Your art quote is, you know, you have the art cost in your head already, you have the shipping costs already figured out and you've you know, you've done the math and you know that, okay, the retails that I set and I'm going to get even after the 10% or so fees from the crowdfunding plus also don't forget the pledge managing.

00;40;37;04 - 00;41;09;05
Speaker 1
There's fees for after sales there. But let's you know, there's that I think one of the things you need to know is usually a good equation is your game should retail should be at least five times what it will cost. You know, a full cost branded and so on. You should be at least five times that. So is if a game costs you $5 with everything shipping are of you know, printing production bah bah bah.

00;41;09;08 - 00;41;33;15
Speaker 1
Then you know okay I could charge $25 and I should be okay because then also don't forget, if you go through distribution, a $25 game will usually net you $10. So if you pick five, okay, you're making $5 off of that. And that's why that five times amount. And that does take into consideration a distribution. If you go into distribution.

00;41;33;18 - 00;41;38;09
Speaker 2
Yeah. I've also heard seven times the manufacturing cost is a number.

00;41;38;12 - 00;42;05;00
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then subtract everyone go I seen minimum five but yes, I think seven now is what the standard are. I think part of it is also you has to be careful because there are times where I couldn't go seven because I felt the game. If I, if the if I went seven times, the retail price I think would have been perceived as overvalued for the type of game it was.

00;42;05;03 - 00;42;23;22
Speaker 1
It could also mean your production cost was too wide because either what you specified or you went with a printer who gave you too high a quote, for example. But sometimes there is like there's games where it's like, Wow, I got to charge $35 for the game. But I don't feel people will pay $35 for the game. I think 30 is the most they'll pay.

00;42;23;29 - 00;42;42;27
Speaker 1
So. Right. I have to adjust. I have to say, okay, can I make a good a profit If I go down to $30, can I, you know, maybe lower my production? Can I lower my art? Can I do other things to mitigate, to make it with the 30? Gives me a good deal, you know, But that's that's me.

00;42;42;27 - 00;43;06;01
Speaker 1
I don't know if everyone does that, but I I've always tried to give as much value as possible to a product and to the consumer are based on it. And there are times where I went lower than I probably should have for lesser margin, but I felt would be more appealing to to the customers. So I've done that.

00;43;06;08 - 00;43;07;11
Speaker 1
I've done that.

00;43;07;13 - 00;43;24;28
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's it's a totally it's also it feels like a puzzle as well getting all the parts we're getting and what components to use. And there's so many ways to, to do to do that and there's so many choices that go into how do you make the game.

00;43;25;00 - 00;43;49;07
Speaker 1
Absolutely. Yeah. And that's a look you have to consider here look take cardstock for example, right. Do you use blue core ivory or Blackhawk? What's the difference once the GSM you know the gram I think grades per square meter kind of thing, you know, usually 300 to 73 three, ten. It's like what what is all that? And you know, you'll see the prices, you know, can vary significantly as you get better quality punch.

00;43;49;07 - 00;44;03;20
Speaker 1
What do I know is the standard two. Do we go three. I'd like to make this three. Well okay, here's the cost. I can't afford that, you know. Do I want to go slightly less. 1.5, you know, so and then back to the cards you could say, well is there going to be a lot of shuffling?

00;44;03;20 - 00;44;25;21
Speaker 1
Maybe if there's not a shuffling, I can afford to go with a slightly thinner card cardstock. We're not as good cardstock because there's not as much shuffling, so I could maybe get away with it. And yeah, I mean, there's so many things that. Right. The, the, the, the size of the box also matters you know how big of a box we get.

00;44;25;21 - 00;44;42;15
Speaker 1
Right. There's the the policy you go for the perceived value but also you don't want a lot of air in the box. So what's the what's the right boxes to work with? And then you've got to make sure, okay, all my components, what will it cost to sit in there, especially if you have We'll see if you have a lot of punch board.

00;44;42;22 - 00;45;05;23
Speaker 1
If you go with a smaller box, that means your punch boards are going to be smaller. Therefore therefore you might need, you know, we more punch more as opposed to going with a bigger box with bigger punch board and less punch board. And that price difference could be significant. So you have to consider that as well as and as I mentioned, the air, you know, or the emptiness of the box, right?

00;45;05;27 - 00;45;28;26
Speaker 1
It's like, man, I really want this big square box. But let's say you only have 110 cards or 100 cards. You go, Well, I'm going to put that in a typical to 95 millimeters square box, because that's crazy. So you have to consider, okay, I'm going to go for this size box. Me I've developed, you know, in my mind and I've gone away from it once in a while in special cases.

00;45;29;03 - 00;45;55;00
Speaker 1
But in my mind I have already box sizes of the the retail price. So like I know roughly what my 15 and $20 game box is going to look like, my 25 and sometimes 30 box is going to be the 30 to 40. So you know what I mean? So I have some in my head. I've already got standards that I use based on price.

00;45;55;08 - 00;46;21;07
Speaker 1
And do I deviate from that? Yeah, once in a while. You know, I've done like my square boxes. I try to do the to the standard ones that to 95 I try to make those 50 minimum. But there are many times where I'm in 40 or 45 because the game needed the big box. I don't think the game play supported a $50 price tag or $55 price tag and or I wanted it to be more accessible to play to to buyers.

00;46;21;15 - 00;46;37;04
Speaker 1
So I'm going to make this a $40 gift. So I do deviate from that as well. But you have to know at least what you what you're doing to know that you can deviate from that. So that's yeah, that's up to you. And keep in mind as well, that's work.

00;46;37;07 - 00;46;43;02
Speaker 2
For me and I love it. You're also factoring in the gameplay. Does the gameplay support that price tag?

00;46;43;05 - 00;47;06;03
Speaker 1
Yes, for me I do. I don't know if anyone else does that. I mean, I'm sure some do. I don't think it is a big factor for most people, I think. But I've but I feel I've always done that for my customers. I always feel where I can. Right? Sometimes I can't be. Sometimes, usually with a localization, I've locked into a price because of its localization.

00;47;06;03 - 00;47;19;10
Speaker 1
I got it, royalty fees and so on and so forth. But I try to yeah, I try to consider gameplay as an important aspect of what I think makes a value to a game.

00;47;19;13 - 00;47;36;07
Speaker 2
Yeah, it definitely does. And I feel like it's to me so many times I just get a very good feeling. I think. I think it's like the difference between somebody who's played a lot of games and has a collection and somebody who's new to the hobby. I feel like people who are new to the hobby want the big bucks, right?

00;47;36;07 - 00;47;57;07
Speaker 2
They want the big epic looking bucks. But for me, I love it so much when I get a small box, but it has like a lot of gameplay, like Red Cathedral for instance. I liked I like that game because it's, you know, very, very small and minimal. It doesn't take up too much shelf space. But but it's a great game.

00;47;57;09 - 00;48;21;22
Speaker 1
And there's a lot of game, right? It feels like, my God, this is much bigger than what it appears to be based on the the box side. Yeah, I love that feeling. I love giving that feeling. A lot of my old man and even some of the wins kids that I did, especially the small box games, pack a lot of game inside those boxes and I love that I love being able to to give that too to the customers.

00;48;21;25 - 00;48;53;24
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know the the opposite then is I do think that it's probably helps for because you have that perceived value that you mentioned like if you if you get a big box I know lots of people give the example of splendor for instance which is you know, only chips and cards and it's just I'm not sure if they have a new, a new edition, but the edition that I've played is, is a much bigger than needed bucks.

00;48;53;26 - 00;49;27;00
Speaker 1
Sometimes, right? Sometimes the publishers will do that to increase the perceived value, but or not, I think to add more to justify a higher price. But they may need to do that because of the production and everything else that went in it. They have to charge a higher price. So you have to also make the customer feel that higher prices justified and a bigger box will sometimes do that.

00;49;27;02 - 00;49;53;03
Speaker 1
It's I mean, sometimes it's just needed, right? I'm not I'm not saying splendor specifically. I don't know. I just remember it being more the Carcassonne sized box that. But it might have been in a bigger box. But I just know that it is a thing where, yeah, people will use a bigger box to justify a higher retail, but sometimes it's to help the publisher meet their margins because they know they have to charge more.

00;49;53;03 - 00;50;18;14
Speaker 1
Because of what? So because of what's in there, right? Because maybe the components, you know, maybe. Yeah, there's not a lot of components, but the components used are very expensive. Like maybe there's, you know, 100 cubes, right? And you are cubes, you know, cheap, but 100 cubes have a cost to them. And it's you know, I can't make this a $20 game as to make this a 25 or $30 game because we have all that.

00;50;18;18 - 00;50;56;28
Speaker 1
And I think I did that once in with Wizkid's show. We also did it. We had a game that had 40 dice in it. I certainly 40 dice not cheap know. And so we had to have a probably a bigger box then needed, but only slightly bigger I think. But I think we used a, a box that I usually charge less for but we, we put it at the high end so it was like my usual $25 box but we had to charge $30 to help mitigate the production costs by adding all those dice.

00;50;57;01 - 00;51;20;06
Speaker 1
And no one complained. I mean, it was it is what it was required. Yeah. We could have gone with a and actually helped out because we couldn't we probably should have gone with a slightly bigger box because everything would have fitted easier and it would have probably also helped justify that price. But I do see it as a, as a viable method of, of helping out.

00;51;20;08 - 00;51;35;01
Speaker 1
But of course, sure, there are people, there are publishers, I'm sure, who are going to do a bigger box. So you charge more and just to make more money, you know, without that. But you know, I can't point to specific details of of course.

00;51;35;06 - 00;52;01;03
Speaker 2
Of course. Well, if if it can be of value add, yeah. It's another one of those decisions that you have to make. And I've seen people do well with both in both extremes of that and like I've got a close friend who publishes, he publishes micro games and, you know, all very small box games with more bigger gameplay.

00;52;01;05 - 00;52;13;23
Speaker 2
And there's there's some, you know, boxes obviously that don't fit a calyx, which is something that I always think like, you know, if a game doesn't fit on a calyx for me, it not feels like excessive.

00;52;13;23 - 00;52;42;07
Speaker 1
But I think I'll go with the micro game is actually a good point. I think you has to go a bigger box with a micro game because especially if you're doing it in retail, it's going to get lost. So I see. I see the reason for going with a bigger box than you need to hold 18 cards because of the fact that in on a shelf on a counter it could easily be lost.

00;52;42;10 - 00;52;52;10
Speaker 1
Yeah, so I don't mind that so much. And I've seen that unless you're do, unless you're known for a particular thing like I think but shy. Yeah. Go see those.

00;52;52;13 - 00;52;53;21
Speaker 2
Games.

00;52;53;23 - 00;53;25;12
Speaker 1
Right. So that's, it's a it's a it became a known quantity. You can do it. I think they have a display of that as well. There's also I think like Perplex games has the, like the, the chewing gum pocket type games. They're all I think three letters like bus spy, whatever. But they're in a in like a an old style I guess Old style but I guess not meant to be slot in a chewing gum box but you need a display of them so they don't get lost.

00;53;25;12 - 00;53;41;09
Speaker 1
Because if it was a single thing you would not be able to sell it that way or retail people would swipe it or it would just get lost on a shelf or in a counter. But if you do a bunch of them and then you have a display of six of them or so on, then that's okay, that makes it there.

00;53;41;09 - 00;54;07;21
Speaker 1
But if you're doing one off micro games here and there, I absolutely see the need for a slightly larger box than needed so that people will be able to see the game. And you know, and I don't think and as long as you're charging a decent price, I don't think people are going to get upset at that. And for all I know, people might buy the game, throw out the box and keep the micro game in sleeves, you know what I mean?

00;54;07;21 - 00;54;48;21
Speaker 1
Or some other more case, if that's what they want. But I don't think it's a good thing of the extra large that you mention. Yeah, I agree with you. I seen things that were just, you know, ridiculously weighty and overly large and it's like, I don't I don't understand it. But I think also maybe that's part of the, you know, the the designers saying, well, yes, I needed to be this because of, you know, it's a it's a grand game and they're trying to push that epic ness and so on where either game play is not really epic or they just added a bunch of things that probably were not needed to fill the box

00;54;48;27 - 00;54;51;23
Speaker 1
or, you know, maybe just hugely.

00;54;51;26 - 00;55;07;16
Speaker 2
It could also just be a part of the philosophy. Like for me, the one game that comes to mind with the huge, huge one is too Many bones. That's the one that is just a little bit too, too large for myself and needs to stand, not talk of it. But I feel like they're kind of saying, hey, we're doing things differently.

00;55;07;18 - 00;55;13;06
Speaker 2
You know, they are doing things very differently from all other publishers, like just with the components. They use.

00;55;13;09 - 00;55;16;08
Speaker 1
Everything. Yeah, because they're brand now.

00;55;16;13 - 00;55;58;12
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. so one thing that I wanted to ask you is I've seen that you've got designer credits on BGT as well, on Tales of the Arabian Nights Nightmare Before Christmas, Seven Deadly Nights, is like and when, when you protested with me last week, I could immediately see that you've got a designer brain. It's, it's, it's very easy to spot when somebody, you know, immediately sees ways to things to make things better mechanically or, you know, spots flaws.

00;55;58;12 - 00;56;17;15
Speaker 2
And it was you know, I could see that you you have that and it probably you know, it also comes from playing a lot of games and having that experience. have you thought about, you know, doing more game designs or is that something that you plan on doing?

00;56;17;18 - 00;56;36;25
Speaker 1
Well, I'll answer this and then if you want to go back to the crowdfunding thing about that. So the designer stuff came more about. So really Tales of the Arabian Nights wasn't a designer, it was it should have been a writing credit. I didn't help design the game. I just wrote a paragraph for it as well as I published it.

00;56;36;25 - 00;57;14;29
Speaker 1
But that I almost I also do a lot of editing and proofing and that but I don't give myself credit for that unless I did it or did it amount of work. But usually for writing, because I've always had a passion as a writer, I always give myself the writing credit for designing. It was always really co-design, and I think it was more sort of touch upon where you said where I gave enough feedback and enough ideas and enough fixes and enough changes where the the original designer said, Dude, I want to put you as a designer because you helped shape this to to something else.

00;57;14;29 - 00;57;35;15
Speaker 1
And usually I reframe that, but once in a while I'll take it. Or they insist and they do. And I'm like, All right, well, that's up to you. I don't mind. So I don't I don't go for the designer credit. It's just something that, you know, the other person felt that I deserved it. And, and then I just reluctantly agreed to it.

00;57;35;17 - 00;58;04;17
Speaker 1
I will say that my forte is I think I'm good in ideas and I'm good in the play testing, polishing phase. I am not good in executing. So while I do have design ideas, I can't seem to and maybe it's also my time and I'm busy, I'm doing all the other stuff. I can't seem to execute what I want.

00;58;04;17 - 00;58;27;02
Speaker 1
I write down a lot of ideas. I just find myself, you know, writing that I like trying to execute and go, no, I think that was done here and I'm trying to do and I want to do something very different. I'm trying not to copy other things, even though sure, you can copy other mechanics and things, but I'm trying to be so different that I just can't seem to execute well.

00;58;27;04 - 00;58;45;21
Speaker 1
So I try to give my ideas to other people and let them do it and then I hope, develop it, polish it, you know, play tests and and so on. So that's my forte. Yeah, just straight up designing from scratch. I don't feel I have the chops for it, honestly.

00;58;47;15 - 00;59;14;16
Speaker 2
Yeah. I feel like the, I would think that you would have the chops. Right. But I do understand what you're saying and I know a lot of people can get into, into their heads about not copying. And it's something that I've thought about a lot, but I at point I think for me, I really stopped caring because very often, I knew that the end result is not going to be a copy of anything.

00;59;14;18 - 00;59;22;24
Speaker 2
But very often, like I start off with a mechanic that, that I like in a game and that I want to see more of, you know.

00;59;22;26 - 00;59;34;04
Speaker 1
Or money I thought was a theme. It's a theme that gets me. And then I try to design mechanics to bolster the scene as much as possible.

00;59;34;06 - 00;59;35;01
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;59;35;03 - 00;59;58;08
Speaker 1
That's where I very rarely do I have a, a mechanic. Or at least. Yeah, I have ideas of some very interesting stuff. In fact, I remember posting to some of my team. I go, Hey, what about this? They go, man, you're crazy. What are you smoking? This is this is so different, so wild. But I was like, Hey, run with it.

00;59;58;08 - 01;00;30;01
Speaker 1
Go do it for me. I don't think that connection Now, maybe if I sat down and said, okay, well, I'm going to focus on is execution of the idea. You're right. Maybe I could put something the people or at least move it somewhat forward where somebody can help. But I just don't know. I just I guess I do get frustrated because it's like even though, like you said, the end result is not copying, I just feel that as I start trying to execute, I got mad That's been done or that's been.

01;00;30;03 - 01;01;01;08
Speaker 1
And then I get frustrated and then I just stop. But every so often I write down actually, I probably wouldn't even know where all my notes are for various schemes that I had in mind. But it's yeah, that's why when I played test, Yes, from playing a lot of games and seeing stuff and also, you know, even from production and stuff where it's like there was a game that I played where a guy had one die in it and he used it very sparingly.

01;01;01;08 - 01;01;24;21
Speaker 1
And I said, Why? Why should we pay for that component? That's going to be harder to use and it's going to be an extra $0.25 or whatever, get rid of it. And here is another way you could do it. And he went, Yep, that's a good way to do it. So I was able to get rid of a component and find an alternate means using existing components to get the same results.

01;01;24;23 - 01;01;38;13
Speaker 1
So yeah, I just, I just focus on that. But I mean, I appreciate the, the, the confidence and the and the kind words. But yeah, I just, I just don't feel I had the time to just sit and design.

01;01;38;15 - 01;01;45;01
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Back to the crowdfunding.

01;01;45;04 - 01;01;52;21
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think what you asked my always will be asking was I always crowdfunding or.

01;01;52;23 - 01;02;04;16
Speaker 2
I think I just and in general crowdfunding versus going straight to retail and you know, funding it yourself.

01;02;04;18 - 01;02;28;01
Speaker 1
So when we formed play to Z, we were, we were considering crowdfunding all our releases. Okay, So I was going in and I didn't have experience and I didn't, I didn't crowdfunded Z Man, I didn't crowdfunded with kids. So this was going to be a new thing for me. But I'm like, All right, well, if that's what you folks want, I'll do it.

01;02;28;03 - 01;02;49;22
Speaker 1
But then we hired somebody to help us with crowdfunding. They helped us with the extending empires. And then we were talking about, okay, well, while this is going, this is the ideas that we want for the future. And they were like, well, no, that's just a glorified preorder. I'm like, Well, is that why is that bad? I mean, we're still crowdfunding.

01;02;49;29 - 01;03;11;13
Speaker 1
And they were now it didn't have to stop us, but it made me think and go, Well, yeah, I guess you're right because I had nothing. And that's right, because it was just going to be a game. No, no stretch goals, no add ons, nothing. In fact, ascending empires, when we did that because the game was already done, you know, it was developed completely.

01;03;11;15 - 01;03;39;28
Speaker 1
There were no add ons in anything else. I go, Well, I can't do there's nothing here. So all we did was offer, I was $140 a game and we offered a $30 price break as the as the C as the the what you call it as the incentive to crowdfund This are only during the campaign because the game comes with two neoprene mats that you put edge to edge and make one full map.

01;03;40;01 - 01;03;55;18
Speaker 1
Someone said why don't you just make a single map and it wouldn't fit in the box? But they said, Why don't you offer one? And I was like, sure, let me check on this. So I went to the printer. I asked them to price it out and it's like, okay, this is this is what it's going to cost.

01;03;55;21 - 01;04;16;00
Speaker 1
And then I went back to the people. I said, All right, I'll offer it, but this is what it's going to cost. And of course shipping is going to be extra because it's a it's a 28 by 28 inch single map. It's going to go in a tube. A tube is an upcharge in shipping. So it's going to be $20 and this and people are like, done, you know, And I sold, you know, like over 500 of them.

01;04;16;02 - 01;04;40;07
Speaker 1
So I was like, wow, okay. But I was happy to be flexible enough to allow it to have it available. And then it made the campaign that much more acceptable and more crowd fundable. But that's where I always see Now, if someone says, hey, you know, why don't we do this game as crowdfunding? My first thing is, okay, what are we going to do differently than the retail version?

01;04;40;07 - 01;05;10;26
Speaker 1
And that's why with 23 Knives, well, we had a lot of stretch goals, not a lot. We had a good number of of stretch goals, promo cards and upgraded our stairs and curia. A raised courier would, instead of stand these wooden meatballs that screen printed meatballs kind of stuff all this porn. So Senator pawns sorry, civilian pawns. So I was like, okay, so we were able to make that crowd fundable, which was great.

01;05;10;29 - 01;05;36;10
Speaker 1
So that's the thinking involved. It's like any so any game that we consider for crowdfunding, we have to say or see what can we do to entice people to back it rather than wait for it to come to retail. And then of course, by giving more what's happening in retail. So those are the thoughts and not every game can meet that criteria.

01;05;36;18 - 01;05;58;28
Speaker 1
So I told my team, I said, Folks, we got all these games we were planning to do, we're told, and from what I understand, they're not crowd fungible because we don't have stretch goals or anything of interest that we can add to it. So this is what we got to do. We will do some crowdfunding, some straight to retail, and they were like, okay, we understand, go for it if that's what it needs to be.

01;05;59;00 - 01;06;26;08
Speaker 1
That's what it needs to be. So we turned from what we were going to think of being crowdfunding only to doing a mixture, and therefore that's why doing about three or four crowdfunding campaigns a year rather than and that would be has to catalog for the year. We want to release, let's say, 8 to 10 games or so, 11 games of that on only three or four are going to be crowdfunded, the rest are going to be direct to distribution, direct retail.

01;06;26;14 - 01;06;26;27
Speaker 1
And I think.

01;06;27;05 - 01;06;29;19
Speaker 2
That's still a huge output.

01;06;29;22 - 01;06;55;05
Speaker 1
It is. So when I tell people that you have tell me a huge output and for me I find it hard to restrain myself to that much because what I was Zeeman, I was doing 25 to 30 games a year in the last few years and I think we even top 35 one year and then with wins kids, we were frequently at 20 to 25.

01;06;55;08 - 01;07;19;19
Speaker 1
So for me when I say, okay, yeah, I'm dropping down and I'm doing 8 to 10, everyone goes, Holy cow, that's still a lot. I'm like, Really? Okay, That's like, I have to stop myself from doing more, you know, because I can do 8 to 10. So I find it funny. But yes, I think everyone's mileage varies. It's just that I was always used to doing so many and it was just it just came naturally to me, honestly.

01;07;19;22 - 01;07;48;29
Speaker 1
But I like, I just if I had the if I had the maybe the hit, you know, the one game that defines the company and then focus on that and maybe that line and then once in a while do another game like I that that might make me think about, okay, I'm going to do you know, two games a year, three games a year because I'm making money from the Mega hit, one from the mega success.

01;07;49;01 - 01;08;09;25
Speaker 1
But I would if that's what it would have to be, I would have to find the game that had that mega success before I would even consider doing a, you know, one or two or three games a year. So for me, it's one of those where it's like, Nope, I got to do a bunch and, and, you know, and I'm not going to use the spaghetti on the wall.

01;08;09;25 - 01;08;29;02
Speaker 1
Seeing a lot of some of my friends tell me that and I'm opposed to that. I get what they're getting at. But spaghetti on the walls. When people say that, it means that I don't care what I'm doing and I'm just doing stuff and, you know, hoping something hits where I am setting everything. I mean, I say no a lot.

01;08;29;10 - 01;08;59;04
Speaker 1
If if I said yes to everything, I could be doing 50 games a month or 50 years a year. So I do set the games and feel, you know, okay, you know, I think this game deserves to be in the market for reasons that want that I that I believe in. So it's not a spaghetti against the walls approach it is a more curated approach but it just happens to be a lot of games to me.

01;08;59;04 - 01;09;21;18
Speaker 1
I don't feel that I'm unable to do it and I've proven that I can do it. I've done it. So yeah, so keeping it to ten a year, believe me, I'm probably on 11 or 12. Sometimes I'd actually push some stuff from 2025 into 2026 just so I can cut down and try to maintain it to about ten now a year.

01;09;21;21 - 01;09;51;23
Speaker 1
And now my 2026 is getting so full that I'm telling I'm signing games maybe for 27 now because I'm I shoved too many things into 26 plus I signed things for 26. So I'm like, you know, my 26 is becoming, you know, ten, 11, 12 games. Now, the only good thing is with 26 for some reason, I have a lot of small games out there, so I'm actually pushing, pulling back one or two into 2025 because I notice I don't have any of my small games.

01;09;51;23 - 01;10;19;01
Speaker 1
And when I say small, I'm thinking about the 15 and $20 type games that I seem to really enjoy playing one or two of those back into 25 where possible. But yeah, it is an output. So therefore, you know, you see figure four campaigns a year, three or four year depending the timing and then another four to 5 to 6 direct to retail.

01;10;19;07 - 01;10;38;07
Speaker 1
And that includes and what makes it harder to maintain it is a lot of these are also original games. But if a localization project comes to me, it's like, wow, yeah, I really want to be a part of this because I think it could be successful. They're pushing it and I can help push it and it's a really great game.

01;10;38;10 - 01;11;00;08
Speaker 1
I don't want to lose it by saying, No, I'm full. You know, I can't do it. So sometimes I just have to grab it and it has to come out in a timely fashion to meet the requirements of the partner that needs it at a certain time. You know what I mean so that the you know, that that's that's where it gets raised.

01;11;00;14 - 01;11;08;17
Speaker 1
Well and all of a sudden one or two or three more games because of of a localization deal that I'm looking at.

01;11;08;20 - 01;11;33;11
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's it's it's really awesome to hear about your process and that many games and that and also like different weights of games like that just having your just the wow factor being what's leading you feels like it's you know, it opens up so many.

01;11;33;13 - 01;11;54;14
Speaker 1
Possibilities I 15 I have a 15 hour game and I have $140 game and I run the gamut there right And one's a trip taker. The other is at Forex game. I have a word game, I have a hand management game, I have a tableau building game, I have an economic game. So yeah, it's just right. I don't I don't win.

01;11;54;18 - 01;12;13;05
Speaker 1
There are some games I won't do. Like for example, again, I probably won't do social deduction. Yeah, I probably won't do. Another word game. And that's not totally correct because I have one of the word game in the catalog, but I probably would not do another word game, at least not for a year or two kind of thing.

01;12;13;05 - 01;12;37;00
Speaker 1
And there are other things I will do. You know, the trivia games, there's a couple of sports simulations. I don't do abstracts, I don't I try not to do. I just I don't do very well with them for some reason I've tried. So there are some categories I probably won't touch is, you know, unless I can be totally convinced for some reason.

01;12;37;02 - 01;12;56;09
Speaker 1
But yeah, I like the fact that I like many different and I'm open to many different types of games. Yeah, I look for three. I don't want you know, I like, I like stories to be told in my game where I want to see a story arc, right? It doesn't mean an actual story it but just where the game you see it grow, so to speak.

01;12;56;09 - 01;13;21;12
Speaker 1
Yeah there's, there's, you know, you start one way and Yeah. And people would say well is that every game you start with very little and that but it's it has to be a nice it has to be a good process and it has to be I feel like I'm doing different things to get there again with that feeling is right where I don't feel I'm doing the same old, same old for four, five, six rounds or whatnot.

01;13;21;19 - 01;13;36;07
Speaker 1
I'm doing different things. My my choices are expanding or I'm doing fun things. I'm doing different things that I've done in other games. So there's a lot of little factors that might get me quite interested in the game.

01;13;36;09 - 01;14;01;14
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Good. I feel like this is a good place to wrap it up. Thank you so much for letting me interview you and it was great talking with you. If you want, this would probably be the place to tell people what they should check out. I mean, I know we've already talked about a lot of the games, but yeah, if there's anything.

01;14;01;16 - 01;14;26;04
Speaker 1
I don't know, I appreciate it. I will say, if you like and a unique for next game we're taking you know I'm back cricket ascending empires if you go on my website you'll probably see some of this but ascending empire Zenith Edition, the 23 Knives, you can still back it on back Cricket, if you like. The social manipulation in the time of season three D Player game takes about an hour or so to play.

01;14;26;06 - 01;14;52;18
Speaker 1
You know why are another really good game tableaux buildings you're making personal three by three grids and where you place cards and matters and their abilities so on it like word games better letters is coming out in December or December or January. It's by Scott Brady who did Hughes Hughes and Q's and Boop. So different word game.

01;14;52;18 - 01;15;13;15
Speaker 1
That's one of the reasons I accepted it was because it was a very different type of word game and then just be on the lookout for other games. I'll see links because links is coming out soon. It's an economic game with an ecological feel. It feels like a stock market each type game. But you're you're trapping here, you're trapping links.

01;15;13;17 - 01;15;49;01
Speaker 1
So again very different and and it takes it gives you the pre cycle within the game where you have to be careful about you don't want to over trap here because you'll crash the links market so to speak or the links population in this case. So yeah I would say go to my website W WW dot play to Z Gamescom t o not the number two and you could see some of the information on those games they're also on big you can find it I think we have rulebooks available so check it out.

01;15;49;03 - 01;15;51;15
Speaker 2
All right fantastic. Thank you.

01;15;51;17 - 01;16;08;12
Speaker 1
Thank you.