35: Andrew Bosley

Andrew Bosley is one of the co-designers of Planecrafters by Paisley Board Games and the artist behind Everdell, The River, Mission: Red Planet, and Citadels. He is a freelance illustrator, game designer, and writer working primarily in the board and video game industries.

Transcript

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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:11
Speaker 1
If I'm in the middle of a painting and I'm just noodling it away on a painting, I can watch a movie, I can have a movie going on, one that I've seen before, so I don't need to watch it anymore. I just like to have it going on in the background, or I can have an audio book going on at that same time because I'm just painting.

00:00:15:12 - 00:00:43:22
Speaker 1
But if I'm coming up with ideas, if I'm if I'm trying to have a creative solution to a client, I definitely any card, any artwork I'm making, if I'm in the sketch phase, I have to turn everything off so I can think. But if I'm really thinking about big ideas, I can't have anything distractions on.

00:00:44:00 - 00:00:55:23
Speaker 2
So my first question is how did you get into games and gaming and how did you get to where you are now?

00:00:56:01 - 00:01:27:20
Speaker 1
Well, it's kind of two different stories when it comes to gaming me personally, gaming for fun and then gaming, you know, working in games professionally. They're very long, both but very different, very, very separated from each other. So I mean, so getting into gaming, I think I've always loved games. I know I have always loved games, obviously, just like everybody else, you know, 40 years ago.

00:01:27:22 - 00:01:54:08
Speaker 1
And we had much less games to to work with. And so a lot of the traditional games that were out there were were all I had available to me. So I played a lot of chess when I was younger. pardon me. I'm gonna turn on my one on my focus here, so I don't get this cord tweet.

00:01:54:10 - 00:01:55:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, sure.

00:01:55:15 - 00:02:19:03
Speaker 1
Anyway, sorry. So I've been. I played chess when I was younger a lot. I certainly all the traditional American board games that were, you know, just all we had available to us. But when I was younger, I was making games with friends. Quite often I, I kind of had forgotten about that until maybe a couple of years ago.

00:02:19:04 - 00:02:49:10
Speaker 1
And I was just reflecting on just how much my my board game like interest has has been. And so it's it's been something that's been around for a long time. But but when it really came to the to become a hobby was was as an adult I my wife and I we we lived in the Bay Area in San Fran near San Francisco when I was going to school and we had some good friends.

00:02:49:12 - 00:03:30:10
Speaker 1
Another couple that they happened to be really big into games and so they introduced us to Survivors of Catan and, and we both, my wife and I, we both went to bed and dreamed about some hours of content that night. And this was like, you know, mind blowing to us that there is, you know, something beyond I don't know, monopoly and solitaire and so so we bought it immediately in and then we just played a ton of it and, and then we were kind of we were excuse me, we were I was a poor student and we didn't have a lot of money in.

00:03:30:12 - 00:03:57:14
Speaker 1
And these friends were kind of like, you know, focus on us charity cases in the game world. And so they'd buy games and then when they got tired of me, give them to us. And so we got, you know, we were introduced to Puerto Rico and Ray gosh, I'm trying to think of of there were so many from back then, but, so many of those stuck with us.

00:03:57:14 - 00:04:21:06
Speaker 1
We still have many of those old, old games, hand-me-down games that we've kept, the ones that have been that became like our favorites. We've, we've replaced over the years. so, and then fast forward many, many years I worked in video games for, for the first part of my career and, and we were buying board games all the time.

00:04:21:06 - 00:04:41:03
Speaker 1
My wife and I were friends, but when I moved to where I am right now in Arizona, I met some new friends and we all had just this desire to like, let's get together, make something. And we thought the thing we had in common was board games. And so we started designing a board game or a card game.

00:04:41:05 - 00:05:05:03
Speaker 1
And even then, like I was going to Gen Con but wasn't even thinking about working, you know, working in art at the time I went to Gen Con, I think twice before I even started handing out work, you know, my postcard to publishers, you know, going, Hey, do you need an artist? I, I was and still hadn't even thought of it as a career direction.

00:05:05:03 - 00:05:27:14
Speaker 1
It was still just something I was interested in and make games or play games. But then and you know, over time that, that that changed. And with the introduction of, you know, I did a couple of games that were kind of one offs and then whenever it all came that that's when everything changed. So but as far as me personally, my interest in games, that's been a very long time.

00:05:27:16 - 00:05:57:12
Speaker 1
My wife and I still play, but we still we have a always have a tournament going on or currently we finished a notorious 150 game tournament of a game called Attica. And that is our our favorite game. We have now moved over to a I don't know how you would describe this, but we have seven games that we need to win best of three tournaments of seven each.

00:05:58:08 - 00:06:22:11
Speaker 1
So so right now we you know, we've we've played four of those games. We go from, you know, one round of seven games for each of those games. Then we repeat that three times. And then whoever has the best of those things wins. So we're pretty dorky and we we still keep up that the passion for it both.

00:06:22:12 - 00:06:39:23
Speaker 1
But my wife and I also have somewhat different taste in games. So we, we have games we play together, but I play different games with my other board game friends. And so it's long, long answer. But I've been in the board game hobby for a very long time. Yeah, and I love it.

00:06:40:01 - 00:06:46:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's very cool. The school that you went to, was that like an art school or was it something different?

00:06:46:03 - 00:07:06:11
Speaker 1
No, it was a a state university. San Jose State was where I went. It just happened. Did a lot of research ahead of time and that was it just had a fantastic program. It also happened to be the only college that accepted me, so it made it very easy.

00:07:06:13 - 00:07:06:23
Speaker 2
It helps.

00:07:06:23 - 00:07:40:18
Speaker 1
It did help, but I, I feel very blessed, very fortunate that that I went there and that was the decision was made for me to go because it was a very a very fantastic program. It was I mean, I it was not as prestigious as, you know, as art schools that we were around. I had, you know, the Academy of Art University was just around the corner from us down in Southern California.

00:07:40:18 - 00:08:11:08
Speaker 1
You had Cal Arts and and Art Center, College of Design. You know, these places that everybody knows about. But but San Jose State just had this. It was like this scrappy program that was just like just built from scratch by these great professors. And and so we got it became well-known for its for its program. But it was affordable.

00:08:11:10 - 00:08:41:17
Speaker 1
It was thorough. It was it was it was a great a great preparation for certainly for my video game career. But I think it also really made me a passionate illustrator even before, you know, considering entertainment and other things, like I just, you know, I loved it. It was a great school. But but no, it was very much under more unknown compared to the the other places.

00:08:41:18 - 00:08:43:23
Speaker 1
But it was it was the best place for it to be for sure.

00:08:44:00 - 00:09:10:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. And, I feel like, I don't know, it's, it's so cool that you can, if you want to make your own game and illustrated and you know, because you have that, you know you're interested in game design as well as art and your, your art is amazing. I mean, completely like it's I just love it, you know, whatever.

00:09:10:09 - 00:09:17:13
Speaker 2
Like Mission Red Planet ever done overseas. I I've, I've loved for a long time.

00:09:17:15 - 00:09:19:07
Speaker 1
Why thank you.

00:09:19:09 - 00:09:43:21
Speaker 2
At what point how did you sort of at first it was a couple of one off projects and then you started you know you did ever though and things sort of hit it off. How did that transition happen from from the video game industry to currently? You're you're doing this full time right?

00:09:43:23 - 00:09:58:15
Speaker 1
I mean, certainly aren't full time but and board games for the most part is full time though. I take on other clients occasionally from different industries for sure. Yeah. But yeah, it's it's definitely like this is almost exclusively. I work in board games now.

00:09:58:17 - 00:10:07:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So how was that transition from video games to art and bird games and,

00:10:07:17 - 00:10:42:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, Yeah. Well, it, yeah, I always as well, so I worked at Ubisoft as a concept artist for, for seven years and, and that was a fantastic company, fantastic people. I was working around. But I think early on and I'm going to be going back a little bit, always back, but I pretty you pretty quickly realized I, I wanted to go I had always wanted to be a freelancer, like I had been a freelancer in college.

00:10:42:21 - 00:11:12:08
Speaker 1
And that was wonder derful but hard and and challenging. But I always had the desire to kind of work for myself and that it wasn't a viable option right out of school for me. So I go to work for a studio and I love it was a great experience, great people. But, but working in that environment, being just like this tiny, you know, piece in this giant puzzle, I had thoughts.

00:11:12:08 - 00:11:37:01
Speaker 1
I had ideas about other things that were that were, you know, not my place to have. And I kind of had a little of that friction for myself just going. I, I'd rather work in things that that are just I can own. And also, you know, we'd work on projects for so long at the company Ubisoft that like I get really tired of the same sort of thing.

00:11:37:01 - 00:12:07:00
Speaker 1
So I was interested in leaving. Certainly working at a studio full time. I wanted to go freelance and, and so around 2013 there was, there was just an opportunity that came. I had been developing my freelance opportunities, which were mostly still video games, not ground, maybe not always very plenty of a lot of in the entertainment industry, in film and things like that.

00:12:07:00 - 00:12:23:23
Speaker 1
But I was doing stuff with and there just came a point where I could leave and I could just my, my freelance work was, was robust enough that I could I could leave and it would made more sense to spend time on the freelance. So I did that. And I was after I left and I came to Arizona and I was working for some time.

00:12:24:02 - 00:12:48:19
Speaker 1
Video game stuff was just was, was constant. It was great. There was lots of work, but eventually it slowed down and I had to look at lots of different I mean, I was always looking at lots of different approaches. I'd take any job that would come, but it's just the strange thing that happened where the board game stuff came in and the video game stuff just kind of went away.

00:12:48:19 - 00:13:11:06
Speaker 1
I mean, as a freelancer, you, you, you know, you're kind of you're kind of at the mercy of just what happens. You know, you're your takes on faith to try to to do this, to kind of go, okay, I'm I'm working hard. I hope that, you know, God provides a way for these things to work out in the end.

00:13:11:06 - 00:13:37:06
Speaker 1
And they did. But but, but they kind of changed in different ways. So so those those opportunities for board games came, you know, very, you know, one off mission Red Planet Citadels. Those just came as one of things that I was adding as a you know, working on on the side as I was working on my video game project and then slowly the video game stuff, you know, just kind of went away.

00:13:37:06 - 00:14:03:08
Speaker 1
Eventually and around then that's whenever it came in. I had a choice specifically with ever Dell. They approached me with a project. I was very, very interested. But another client, another, another project came along and they said, Hey, you know, we'd really love for you to work on this game. And, and the first, not ever, Dell was going to pay me more.

00:14:03:10 - 00:14:23:09
Speaker 1
And I was, you know, I just kind of Kim was very close to just going, well, these guys will pay me more. I'd rather do this. It wasn't actually a video game as it was. It was actually for for gosh, we would talk about Richard Garfield earlier. It's he did he was a designer for EA for which wasn't he didn't he.

00:14:23:11 - 00:14:45:01
Speaker 1
Yes. Part of Q for Yeah. So so they approached me to basically do as many cards as I wanted to and at a certain rate. And so basically I just said that for Dell, like I really want to work on, I mean, I did end up doing work for keyboard some and I really enjoyed it. But, but whatever Dell was and what they were pitching to me just seemed like the, the thing I would love the most.

00:14:45:03 - 00:15:07:17
Speaker 1
And so I just said, hey, you know, if you could if you could match this, if you can if you can match this, I would much rather be working on this. And so they they were willing to do that. And and that was a a significant change for their, you know, their cost impact on them. It's not like I was it was expensive, certainly expensive for video game standards.

00:15:07:17 - 00:15:29:14
Speaker 1
It was it was I was not making a lot of money but it but but if they could meet me there, then I then I could I could make this work. And so that was the start of that there and basically a or after ever Dell came out fortunately I feel very fortunate that life the work just has kept coming from that point.

00:15:29:16 - 00:15:54:04
Speaker 1
So it was it was not a planned change it just it just happened. I it's funny though I had some in a long time ago. An illustrator friend at one point recommend board games to me and I and I listened and thought that was interesting, but it just kind of went in one, you're out the other. And that was several years before this.

00:15:54:06 - 00:16:05:11
Speaker 1
And I was like, Yeah, you know, what does that even mean? Like board games? I mean, how many board games are there? You know, I was I was just like everybody else who didn't know what the industry was at the time.

00:16:05:11 - 00:16:06:17
Speaker 2
And yeah, so.

00:16:06:23 - 00:16:12:07
Speaker 1
Anyway, it was it was a good transition. I loved it. But, but it was fairly unexpected.

00:16:12:10 - 00:16:41:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, but it's very similar, very similar for me as I've been doing freelance for the past couple of years and I didn't expect it to become my, my full time thing. But I've heard that very similar story from many of my videogame friends that transition toward games of, you know, having this giant team and then the creative process so much different when when it's a team of, you know, three people versus a team of like 80 or 100.

00:16:41:18 - 00:17:15:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, I really I really enjoyed that. I, I mean, I'm not I'm, you know, except on occasions when I'm I get I'm making my own projects and I'm designing the game. I'm obviously not involved in the game design as much for most of my clients at all. For most of my clients. But just just being able to kind of put my name on something that maybe it's pride, I don't know, but it's but it's something neat to be able to go, okay, I've got a vision for this and let me or my clients have a vision.

00:17:15:23 - 00:17:35:19
Speaker 1
Let me help you see this all the way through and success or failure, at least on the art side, I'm able to kind of own the process and the look and my clients put a lot of trust and I hope I'm hopeful that the end result was positive.

00:17:35:19 - 00:17:43:18
Speaker 2
So yeah. What are some good practices from clients who want art done?

00:17:43:19 - 00:17:45:00
Speaker 1
Working with practices?

00:17:45:00 - 00:17:55:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, good practices. Like what are things that make it easy for you to work with people or something or the opposite, you know, Is there something where you're like, I don't really want to, you know.

00:17:55:16 - 00:18:32:18
Speaker 1
Like, Well, sure, sure. I have a few. I mean, well, I the core I think of one of the the best experiences and the worst experience is kind of come down to one of these things of where I'm not going to speak to every individual artist is different and has different capabilities. But but the best experiences for my career or when clients recognize that they're hiring me to do more than just copy, you know, what they have in their head.

00:18:32:20 - 00:18:57:10
Speaker 1
Most of my clients are not artists, and so they're hiring me as a full artist, not just a pencil for hire, but somebody who has a lot of creativity. So they go, If they come to me and say, This is what I'm interested in doing, this is my vision, not for way the cover or the art, you know, has to look like, you know, but just what I want to convey.

00:18:57:10 - 00:19:16:14
Speaker 1
What emotions do I want to convey? What what is the important elements of this game that should be, you know, on the cover somewhere? I mean, those are things that are I can't make up. They need to be I need some information for my client, of course. But then they say, show me some ways that I can solve this visually.

00:19:16:14 - 00:19:39:20
Speaker 1
Artist, you know, do do show me, show me what, what, what, what you would do to to solve my my art, the artistic needs I have here. And and when they put that, when they let me give them those options, they're going to reject most of them. But they're we're going to find one and we're all going to be happy with them.

00:19:39:21 - 00:20:12:10
Speaker 1
It's going to be something awesome. And that's that's fantastic. When when that's there, then it's a great experience. When it's not. That's a little bit harder. I, I, I've had clients in the past, again, who are not artists and there's nothing wrong with not being an artist, but when you're hiring an artist, you kind of assume the artist assumes that you're you're going to let them exercise their, their artistic muscles fully, you know, to give, you know, you're paying for it.

00:20:12:10 - 00:20:34:15
Speaker 1
So why not let us give you the whole the whole package. But I'll have clients sometimes they'll be like, okay, I've got this idea for this cover and I've got this image here and I want I want these colors up here in this corner and I want, you know, there's this thing over here, and they'll give me like this clip art, you know, collage of stuff.

00:20:34:15 - 00:20:59:17
Speaker 1
And they're saying, this is the cover, This is the cover. I just need you to paint this. Yeah. And that's like and I I'll usually try to be as diplomatic as possible and be like, Hey, let me a minute. We're going to do that version. But can I show you some other versions, some other things? And sometimes if I need to, I'll say to a client, I'm sorry, but what you showed me is the most horrific thing that I have ever seen.

00:20:59:19 - 00:21:19:20
Speaker 1
I cannot do that. And and I will not put my name on that and paint that for you and say that I made that art, because that's that's not that's not me. That doesn't happen that often, but sometimes I have to do that. Yeah, but that's kind of that that that side of things where where it's like why, why are you hiring me?

00:21:19:22 - 00:21:40:00
Speaker 1
And I don't I don't run into that most of the time. I know lots of artists do occasionally, especially early artists, young artists that the that that their client knows they're less experienced. And so sometimes that's unintentionally but they'll but they'll basically go, I got it. I got to help this artist along and I'm purposely hiring a young artist so I can get them cheap.

00:21:40:01 - 00:22:01:15
Speaker 1
So I'm going to tell them, you know what, this is going to look like that it usually doesn't turn out very well in current and most recent times. This actually comes what is a is a bigger topic. And I've certainly talked to the about this and I certainly have strong feelings about this is this the the latest and more lasting?

00:22:01:17 - 00:22:30:18
Speaker 1
The thing that's going to be around for a long time is is air and where that comes in. I, I have had clients who will give me air and and say can you make this? And it's basically the same thing. Yeah. And it's perhaps even more demoralizing than when and when a client sends me their clip art or their collage of stuff and say, I had this idea, I want you to make this.

00:22:30:19 - 00:22:51:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, when I get air from clients, it's like I didn't even I just pressed a bunch of buttons, you know, make this, make this that doesn't work. Make this or make this one it doesn't work. And and then they say, make this artist, you know, I've already come up with this vision. This is what it is from, you know, it's that there's a whole lot to this.

00:22:51:04 - 00:23:20:02
Speaker 1
But but that's that's stuff right now that all us artists right now are dealing with. And in universally if you are an artist, hire, if you are an artist that has made your career out of painting, drawing, painting, all this sort of stuff with your own mind when a client comes to you with air and says, Whatever, I find this inspiring, can you do something like this?

00:23:20:04 - 00:23:43:13
Speaker 1
Any of that? We it kills all of us. Yeah. So you asked the question and I gave you a big one there. But that's, you know, that's currently what all of us artists, when we talk to each other and we all are sharing the same, this is like a really hard thing for our industry. So, so there's, there's lots of them.

00:23:43:13 - 00:24:16:14
Speaker 1
But I do out on this one for a second. But I would say if first off, because it's probably the thing that everybody is considering, every game designer, every publisher and every artist is thinking when it comes to art, I have a choice of this or this and, and ultimately, if I think most of us recognize that using art for actual finished product for the finished product is not good and it will be bad for your product for a variety of reasons.

00:24:16:16 - 00:24:46:15
Speaker 1
I just to most most recently, the thing I tell a lot of publishers have written an article about this. I've done interviews about this. But when it comes to these best practices, like if you've already decided you're not going to use art, then don't go the artist. You're hiring any air either. Just tell them what you are interested in seeing if and perhaps if you've seen other real artists that had made something and you said, I like this, but can you solve this in your own style?

00:24:46:17 - 00:25:01:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's the best way to do it and and trust you. If you've hired an artist that you've, you know, trust that you've hired an artist that knows what they're doing and they'll and they'll get it done. that was like a big rant.

00:25:01:04 - 00:25:27:03
Speaker 2
I apologize, but it's great. And it sounds to me like trust is a big part of it. But also it sounds like the easiest way, which is you're hiring the the person to do this job. The easiest thing is to let them do their job. Yeah, but but a lot of people do want to micromanage or they really have this very specific idea that that they want.

00:25:27:05 - 00:25:55:02
Speaker 2
But to me, that's like one of the the most fun things. And as like I come from a background of I used to be a professional musician currently I don't do it as often, but I went to school for that. And like the best projects that I've or the best bands I've played and all that is when they were like, figure out, you know what you're doing now.

00:25:55:04 - 00:26:14:09
Speaker 2
And of course I can also, you know, play sheet music or I'm doing in a specific way. But like my favorite thing is when there's been that feeling of I can do what I want and or I can make it good in my way, and then, yeah, of course, take feedback off.

00:26:14:11 - 00:26:39:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. And that's the thing is all of us are artists and I'll just say good artists. And I think that that's what we have available. That's what publishers have available to them in this industry. We have a lot of great artists here. We all know how to do that. We're all experienced in that one. When when, you know, if when I meet with a client and they just say, okay, this is what we have going on, I'm asking lots of questions.

00:26:39:08 - 00:27:07:21
Speaker 1
They're answering those questions. We're usually really good. This is what we've been trained to do, is to take the words and the ideas that that people have and and and and then translate that into something visual. And we give you options and we and then we we can go, you know, a publisher comes back with some feedback. We know how to address that feedback and in a way that is meets those needs.

00:27:07:21 - 00:27:36:18
Speaker 1
But it's also artistically beautiful, you know, successful and, and that's not, that's not that. That's what our skill set is. So you're already paying for it. You might as well use it. And I honestly, truly believe that it it saves the publisher time, publisher slash designer time, and it saves them a whole lot of energy to just go, I trust your artist.

00:27:36:18 - 00:27:54:08
Speaker 1
Make this thing happen. And then it's not always going to be perfect either, because we're all imperfect, you know, all of us, especially as artists, You know, we're not we're not perfect. We are. But in that imperfection comes some really incredible things, too.

00:27:54:10 - 00:28:25:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. What about taking that feedback from or like, I know sometimes you've got you've got people who maybe they're, they're not they feel like they're not good at giving feedback. And how, how should they come to you? What should they say? How should they be diplomatic, you know, or maybe they don't don't have a concrete vision, you know.

00:28:25:15 - 00:29:03:16
Speaker 1
Well, that's fine. And see, I mean, those are two different things. So first off, if if they have a vision and there's feedback, I rarely run into this, but I but if, if this is if this happens, if there is feedback again I as artists we were I can't speak to all of them, but we love to tell our stories about how we went to school and our professors would like critique, you know, you know, we all put our artwork all of the class or put our artwork up on the wall for our professor to critique.

00:29:03:18 - 00:29:20:21
Speaker 1
And all of us have these horror stories of like my professor through picked up my sheet of paper, threw it on the ground and stepped on it and spat on it, and did all this sort of stuff like we're we're used to pretty harsh stuff. We don't that's not what we want all the time. That's that's not that's not the best way to do it, perhaps.

00:29:20:21 - 00:29:50:14
Speaker 1
But we're used to we know how to take feedback and address those things. And if we were if we we wouldn't be commercial artists. If we were not ready to work for our clients to give them the best thing that they could get, you know, to give them that what they want. I mean, I, I, there's different types of artists in the world and commercial artists are different than fine artists in a variety of different ways.

00:29:50:14 - 00:30:14:10
Speaker 1
But one of those ways is we are working to please a client. And I, I not not all people think commercial art is like I think I think working for clients that I love to make my clients happy. And that means fixing the things that I might have made a mistake on. It means I enjoy that collaborative process of where we're going back and forth.

00:30:14:10 - 00:30:40:20
Speaker 1
So anyway, the the core answer to the question is nobody should be scared to give feedback on on stuff that the artist is giving. If and I run into this and I if I'm ever reluctant or, you know, I have I'm I'm willing to make those changes if I feel like they make sense. If I don't feel like they make sense, then I'll I'll answer back.

00:30:40:20 - 00:31:04:01
Speaker 1
But if I'm ever in a situation where I refuse to make any changes to something I've made, I'm not I'm not really doing my job. So. So anyway, that that shouldn't be a thing that, that, that I mean, if somebody is like me being really like micromanaging, the whole process is really, really bad. I mean, that's when you need to go.

00:31:04:03 - 00:31:25:04
Speaker 1
That's when some artists will go, okay, here's my contract. You can tell me like you can give me three revisions or two revisions because, yes, some clients will will go overboard and they'll take advantage of an artist and and their lack of vision. They don't have the confidence in themselves to say, you know, I don't have a great vision.

00:31:25:09 - 00:31:50:08
Speaker 1
I trust you to do this. Instead, they go, I don't have a vision, so I want you to just keep changing until you you miraculously give me the thing that I don't even know if I want. So that's a problem. But that's rarely a situation that doesn't happen that often. And artists know how to deal with those sort of things when it comes to people who don't have a vision that that's that's a little bit harder.

00:31:50:08 - 00:32:16:03
Speaker 1
But but it's like that's again, I mean it you I mean, that's a that's a that's a problem. But if you're okay with the artist solving it for you, then then that's great. But, but perhaps it's that's some basic homework that any client would need to to kind of come with if they don't have a lot of stuff to go on.

00:32:16:05 - 00:32:36:07
Speaker 1
And there's nothing like I'm working with the client right now. That has been a wonderful experience and they've kind of said to me for everything, and it's not a big project, it's a relatively small project, but from the cover to the board to to some cards to all these sort of things, they've kind of said, you know, Andrew, we really are interested in just seeing what you want to do with this.

00:32:36:12 - 00:32:59:14
Speaker 1
Here's the thing, of course, you know, but how you want to interpret this, like we don't really necessarily have a concrete vision for this cover, for example. So I gave him a wide variety of ideas in a composition, you know, in sketches to go, okay, we could do this, we could focus on this part of the game, or we could focus on this part of the game through what we did here.

00:32:59:14 - 00:33:16:06
Speaker 1
And they're like, You know what? We like those things. You know, maybe not this one. This one doesn't work. I mean, this is literally how it worked. Like, I think this is not the direction we would want to go with this, but we like these two things. Whatever. Whatever works for you is fine. And so I ran with it.

00:33:16:06 - 00:33:36:08
Speaker 1
And that's that's a little more unusual. I have usually more information than that. Yeah, but, but at least they said to me, you know, Andrew, we trust you to solve this. And, and they were true to that when I sent them. You know, they saw the sketch. Then when I sent them a color rough for the cover, they said, this looks great.

00:33:36:08 - 00:33:52:00
Speaker 1
You know, maybe like, tweak this little thing here. Maybe this does a little bit too much yellow in this in the whole thing. Could you maybe change that just a little bit? Like, no problem. So I change it and then I moved to final and they go, This is great, awesome. We're done. And and that's a cool experience.

00:33:52:01 - 00:34:09:12
Speaker 1
So if if a client does not have enough information, if they don't have a clear vision, the worst thing to do would just be like to fake it and just pretend. And then, I mean, you're wasting they're wasting their time. They're wasting our time. A smart illustrator would charge them for that time. Yeah.

00:34:09:15 - 00:34:10:10
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:34:10:12 - 00:34:31:03
Speaker 1
And then not all of us do that. But, you know, that just might be the last time you ever work with that artist. And. And perhaps that artist might tell other artists and that might be the. So, you know, you might just have a harder relationship with other artists in the future. But, but I rarely run it.

00:34:31:03 - 00:34:50:12
Speaker 1
I don't run and I feel very fortunate that that's, that doesn't happen that often in my career right now. I certainly had been through that many times in video games and in in board games early in my career. And I hate seeing it when other artists go through that. So we all just try to.

00:34:50:14 - 00:34:51:15
Speaker 2
To.

00:34:51:17 - 00:35:02:14
Speaker 1
Share what those like. You ask those best practices of, you know, from the artist perspective, we don't often speak up and share those things, but when we have the opportunity, thank you. And sometimes we speak up and say.

00:35:02:16 - 00:35:14:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, what's something that you've learned from your time in board games? Or like, a big loss because you've been doing it for a while, right?

00:35:14:12 - 00:35:24:11
Speaker 1
I still feel like the new guy, but. But yeah, I mean, I would say ever. Dell So 2018 was when I, I started. So it's been.

00:35:24:11 - 00:35:26:04
Speaker 2
More than half a decade.

00:35:26:06 - 00:35:40:08
Speaker 1
More than half a decade now. This is true. What if I learned, gosh,

00:35:40:10 - 00:35:42:21
Speaker 2
I can narrow it down if you'd like.

00:35:42:23 - 00:35:47:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, narrow it down for me for a second. Sure. That might help me. Yeah.

00:35:47:03 - 00:35:51:20
Speaker 2
What have you learned about how to manage your time?

00:35:55:06 - 00:36:21:16
Speaker 1
sure. Well, Well, I don't know if I wanted it's nitty gritty art stuff or just, you know, I guess it's time management stuff. One of the things that that has always been a challenge for me, I think it stemmed from my early four, from all of my freelance experience. I've always been of the opinion that as soon as I turn down a job, I'm not going to get the next job.

00:36:21:18 - 00:36:58:10
Speaker 1
I need to take every job I can get. That's always been my my mantra for a long time. I am in a position where now I do need to turn down jobs, but only because of I'm already full. I already have things going on. I can't take them. But but I have had this. I've had this mindset of taking on projects more than I should in the past, and it still is a challenge for me now when someone comes, you know, I'm working on this thing and we really need to have you on this project.

00:36:58:12 - 00:37:27:07
Speaker 1
I take I all of my clients, all my clients know this. I take my projects and the people I work with. It becomes very personal for me. I get attached to the projects and get attached to the people. They become usually very close friends and and so as soon as somebody even just sends me an email and just goes, you know, you really need to have you on this project, there's a there's a part of me that's like, I don't want to let this person down.

00:37:27:09 - 00:37:47:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, okay, I'll, I'll find a way to make this work. And, and I, you know, and so it, it takes a really extreme like I am just being smashed with clients that, with projects. I just cannot do that. There's no way I could take this on except those rare occasions. I usually go, Yeah, I'll fit this in.

00:37:47:13 - 00:38:15:02
Speaker 1
And so anyway, the thing that I've learned is and it's taken me a long time and perhaps I haven't learned it fully is just to, to I have to I have to say no sometimes. And I, I know that that probably is that for all artists that's probably one of the, a good lesson to learn occasionally is is we're not always in a position to do that.

00:38:15:02 - 00:38:42:13
Speaker 1
But, you know, we get we get so many insane demands at times that's artists, you know, not not so much in this industry. This industry is very, very awesome. This is such a wonderful industry to be working in. But if you're working in like publishing, if you're working in, you know, the deadline is so often like the next day, you know, to make something and start from scratch and make something or whatever it may be.

00:38:42:15 - 00:39:03:16
Speaker 1
And and I, I need to and I, I have learned this. It hasn't always come into practice, but to just be able to go, no, I can't do that. I just actually I physically can't make this happen. I have clients all the time that I care about love that would be like. Andrew We just decided that we need just now.

00:39:03:18 - 00:39:15:18
Speaker 1
We decided that we need ten more illustrations for the Kickstarter campaign. So can you get those in? And we need them like by the end of next week. You know.

00:39:15:21 - 00:39:17:23
Speaker 2
A Kickstarter is already running.

00:39:18:01 - 00:39:46:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, Yeah, exactly. I mean, that that happens quite often. Something along those lines and, and I feel like I've got to do this for my client and, and so and I'll say yes often. And that means that all my other clients are, are pushed off for a time I'm in it, I have to manage my time. But they don't always my clients don't see all the craziness that's going on here in my studio.

00:39:46:07 - 00:40:08:09
Speaker 1
They just, you know, I'll be just like, Yeah, I'll get to that. But in reality I've pushed them off for a week because someone over here has an emergency, so I'm getting their stuff done right now. Even though it was added, you know, an hour ago. And because I want to please them, the saving grace for all of that is all of my clients do that.

00:40:08:11 - 00:40:27:17
Speaker 1
So I just go, Well, you're asking me now and I'm going to give you that time. But in a couple of weeks I won't work. I won't be doing anything for you. Yeah, because you got your emergency time. And now I need to go work on this person's emergency time. And so there's really nothing you can say about it.

00:40:27:17 - 00:40:53:13
Speaker 1
Like, you know, but. But I saw it being it. But. But it would be smarter if I just didn't get myself into those position. So I. So time management. Yeah. It hasn't been learned 100% but that's one of those things that like I think it also if if more artists were like that perhaps then the expectations another you know from the people that are demanding it might become a little bit more more reasonable but that's a that's a big ask.

00:40:53:13 - 00:41:11:09
Speaker 1
And again, it's not a problem and it's not as much of a problem in the board game industry. When my clients ask me to do that, they're very polite about it, They're very kind. They understand they're putting me in a tough situation by asking it. So they're very understanding and most of the time they're like, If you can't get all that done, I understand.

00:41:11:11 - 00:41:18:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. But at the same time and at the same time, I still do my very best to get it done.

00:41:18:06 - 00:41:41:20
Speaker 2
But it's it is a blessing in a way that the board game industry is so small and you've got that they're much more understanding. And so and I feel like in a lot of ways, if you want to be a freelancer, you have to be a yes man for for, you know, at least at least for at the beginning.

00:41:41:20 - 00:41:52:05
Speaker 2
You know, you take on what you can get and get through the experience and all of that. And then at one point you realize, I don't need to be doing these projects anymore. Yeah, yeah.

00:41:52:07 - 00:42:17:06
Speaker 1
That's totally it. It's such a it's not wrong. It's not bad. It's it's just part of the experience of getting doing more having more experience in any industry. When you first started out. Yeah. You're you're totally a yes man all the time. The client is always right And and even as you go further on like you still want, you want to do your best for your client.

00:42:17:06 - 00:42:40:09
Speaker 1
But as time goes on, yeah, you're like, I don't you know, it's funny, you know, that that exact thing happened. That was probably where I worked on Mission Red Planet. Because of a decision like that. My very first board game was probably a decision based on something like that. I was I had been working for fantasy flight games while I was working in video games full time.

00:42:40:09 - 00:43:12:13
Speaker 1
I was when I was it was still at Ubisoft. I started doing stuff for for fantasy flight, for their trading card games or for their collectible card games and and it was very low pay. Everybody knew, like in the fantasy illustration world like there's a tiers, you know, and so you start on your pay you're getting paid nothing and then you would move up in fantasy flight at that time was it was fine It wasn't you know but but it was it was relatively low pay for a card.

00:43:12:15 - 00:43:33:23
Speaker 1
And at one point I just like I'd done and I did so much work for them. I'd done plenty. And I just but but I had moved on in other areas where this was now like, I don't I don't want to take this on. Like, if you're not going to if I can't get paid, you know, a minimum of, you know, this, which is extremely reasonable, if you can't do that, then, you know, I just and I knew all the art directors well.

00:43:33:23 - 00:43:56:20
Speaker 1
And so I basically just said at one point, you know, I have other things I don't really want to work on on these at this rate anymore. So let me know if you have a cover, you know, because I'll probably put, you know, the way it worked. It seemed to work often like I'll put as almost as much time into a cover, almost as much time into a card, a single card as I would put into a cover.

00:43:56:20 - 00:44:20:22
Speaker 1
But I get paid ten times as much. And so I just said, you know, for this company, if you could just let me know when covers come along, I'll work on those. And, and then eventually, like a few covers came in, I did work for Descent, I did book covers for expansions, for Descent for a while. And then at one point they were just like, you know what?

00:44:20:22 - 00:44:43:18
Speaker 1
We got a board game, you know, and we think that your style is going to be perfect for this. It's going to be you know, we know, you know, we know how the financial wise, this has not been great. This is going to be a little bit better. And so they had made a product, not made a project, but they had a project that they were like, you know, I think this of Andrew's needs and his work will meet our needs.

00:44:43:19 - 00:45:07:03
Speaker 1
And it was a great thing. But if I had not said no or if I had not, you know, and, and I didn't have to stand my ground or anything, but it felt like a bold move to just say, I'm sorry, that work I don't want. But but you kind of have to do that as you as you move forward in any industry, you get more experience, you are more valuable and you need to you need to stand up for that.

00:45:07:03 - 00:45:11:09
Speaker 1
And and and us artists are notoriously not good at doing that.

00:45:11:13 - 00:45:40:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. But maybe just making your needs met is a great step because or making people know what your needs are, you know, especially, you know, you have a family, you know, it's a, it is a job a lot of people don't sometimes don't realize that sometimes they because there can be personal, especially, you know, independent, you know, people who are new to this, they they can think, this is my passion project, you know, on the side.

00:45:40:06 - 00:45:57:06
Speaker 2
But at the same time, you you spend all your time on this. And yes, there are fun parts and, you know, yes, there's it's very great when everything comes together. But you also need to have needs met so that you can keep doing it.

00:45:57:08 - 00:45:59:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, totally.

00:45:59:12 - 00:46:22:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. What's and I know you've done some game design and we talked, I think before we started, I just mentioned it brought. Do you plan on doing more game design? Is there something you know. Yeah. Sort of dream game. Do you have any like aspirations to, to do game design again or more of.

00:46:23:00 - 00:46:47:23
Speaker 1
I do, I do actually. I really love I love game design. It's hard to like it's hard to call myself a game designer, though. I love design games and I because it's not something I'm doing all the time. I kind of forget that that's something that I really, really love are really. It's such a neat experience and really challenging.

00:46:47:23 - 00:47:14:01
Speaker 1
I mean, like playing board games is like such a, you know, every game has a new puzzle to solve and to try to do it the best way possible and game design itself is is like that times 100. You know, it's, it's just like this crazy puzzle that, you know, when this thing works, it breaks this thing. And then when you go to fix this thing and then this thing breaks, and then when it all comes together, it's like the biggest, coolest thing in the world.

00:47:14:03 - 00:47:40:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I miss doing that. Yeah, I do have actually a dream game in my head. It's not anything that's like, you know, groundbreaking or anything, but it's something I've had in my head. I've had a world that I've, you know, that I've associated with it. So I see it visually in my head very, very well. I just don't I just don't have the time to develop it.

00:47:40:17 - 00:47:49:16
Speaker 1
And I hope someday that I can in the end, it'll if I do it, it'll just be, you know, something everybody forgets immediately. But it will be something.

00:47:49:21 - 00:47:52:11
Speaker 2
don't say that. Don't go in with it.

00:47:52:13 - 00:48:35:05
Speaker 1
It'll be something I'll be proud of. Yeah. And then I'll, you know, I hope I can get, you know, I'll do that and then I'll move on to the next thing. But no, I hope I have I have my own personal projects that I'm working on that are, that are, that are, that will that are right now and will continue to to collaborate with with the board game industry that everybody knows about collaborations with like Stoneware Games, which are a world I'm working on and games we're working on together with them.

00:48:35:07 - 00:48:56:16
Speaker 1
You know, these things that I have ideas for. I'm very fortunate that they might have the opportunity to see the light of day in the future because of of cool collaborations with with people in the industry. So I hope that I hope that time will come. Yeah, but it's been a while.

00:48:56:21 - 00:49:23:21
Speaker 2
And there's there's a lot of overlap, at least I find between the arts. Like when you've gotten good at, you know, one type of art. I think there's a lot of things that transfer over, like even even if it's just you realize that things take time. So, you know, a lot of people that haven't gotten or haven't done art that much, they expected something to work immediately.

00:49:23:21 - 00:49:53:09
Speaker 2
Well, so, you know that there's lots of different drafts, there's lots of editing, you know, going back. And I think it's the same with with game design. With game design. Also, though, there is it a puzzle. And it was funny to me when you said how you played Settlers of Catan and thought about it all night. I have like so many nights and I've talked to lots of designers as well, where like at night I'm playing a game in my head that I know something isn't working and it's like, How do I get this thing to work?

00:49:53:11 - 00:50:18:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, and it's cool. Like, it is. It is. I've said this lots of times. My friend Sam MacDonald from Graceful Games Suburb said this to me. He was like, you know, you know, there are different hobbies, right? Playing games and making games and making games is is very cool because there's like this big this this big puzzle that you're trying to to find what's going to make it.

00:50:18:09 - 00:50:41:10
Speaker 2
And sometimes you don't know like I've got clients I do a lot of development work with different publishers and even just a couple of days ago, we had a meeting where, you know, we're like, we both of us know what the problem is, right? And we know where we want to get it to. This, like every solution is going to introduce other problems and it's like you're trying to find it and we want to find it.

00:50:41:12 - 00:50:41:20
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:50:41:20 - 00:51:03:23
Speaker 1
And then add, you know, I mean, I have only worked really in game design. I've only worked with a partner before. Yeah. So playing crafters, I had a partner, him and I together, we, we made find crafters equally. I worked on a game Lightning Bolt that was a partnership was with another person and again, same sort of thing.

00:51:03:23 - 00:51:22:02
Speaker 1
We work together on this sort of stuff and even even that. The way game design works in the collaboration is a really interesting and amazing thing like, you know, you, you'll have times where one one designer be like, if this is the way we need to solve this, and the other one's like, No, this is the way we to solve it.

00:51:22:02 - 00:51:52:00
Speaker 1
Like how do we resolve this? You go to play testing and you get the feedback from ten people and then they'll tell you what the right decision was, you know? And then it's like, okay, you know, like the people decided it and it's, you know, it's like there's just it I think it's such a fascinating process and it's just even like that little, little point, like it's some lessons learned from game design spill out in the real world, too.

00:51:52:00 - 00:52:26:08
Speaker 1
You know, there's there's just I think it's such a neat thing. I do miss it quite a bit. Then I hope I hope someday. I can't imagine so funny to think back in the day when I first started my freelance career, I gave up like pretty much a morning a week to meet with my partner to make this game for about five years and I don't know where I had that time, but, you know, really hard for me to have the claim, that sort of thing to do game design again, but I'm very happy for it.

00:52:26:10 - 00:52:50:12
Speaker 2
I think it's I think that's the way to do it though, because that's like every project that I've worked on that's gotten to a place where we're really happy with has been we meet every Wednesday and Friday or we meet every, you know, we have that schedule and it's it's with and also it's in collaboration. And that's also for me I found it so difficult to do non collaborative project.

00:52:50:12 - 00:53:16:06
Speaker 2
I've done two little small games like this is one of them. It's like completely just a solo little puzzle game, but it's always it's always been so much harder. And a big part of it is because you can, you can sit down, you have that different point of view and I find that in those sessions it's really helpful to also be like, almost like, you know, an improv, how they say yes and everything.

00:53:16:06 - 00:53:25:12
Speaker 2
It's like, let's do this, you know, and yes, let's do that and let's see if, you know, if this is going to work. So it's I find it very fun. Yeah.

00:53:25:14 - 00:53:27:08
Speaker 1
So that's great.

00:53:27:10 - 00:53:49:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. Talking about that, I liked I saw your word game geek explanation what I what I noticed you know you've got just a lot of in your big description you know you've got ping pong mentioned ukulele mentioned you know you got lots of hobbies and you got.

00:53:49:20 - 00:53:51:09
Speaker 1
What's in there.

00:53:51:11 - 00:54:21:20
Speaker 2
Those two those two are in there. And I was going to say, I was going to ask you about about, you know, people that want to turn their hobby into professions. So maybe that's people that haven't gone to art school or haven't, you know, developed those or they're developing their skills. But, you know, they they want to go full time, whether it's freelance or with a company.

00:54:21:22 - 00:54:25:17
Speaker 2
What would be your advice towards those people?

00:54:26:04 - 00:55:06:22
Speaker 1
gosh. Well, every industry is different and every creative pursuit is different, for sure. But so perhaps one of the things that that stands out to me, that's that's probably universal for everybody is is it's easy to say that putting in the time that is the most important. So if it's artistically, you know, always developing your portfolio, always know, rotating out the worst piece of artwork and making something new, like if you're not just it's a lot a lot of mileage, you got to put in to do things better.

00:55:06:22 - 00:55:47:18
Speaker 1
But I would say what's what's what's particularly unique and this is this is like the dad and me talking a little bit, but but it's still very, very important is is attention. We don't we are it is so easy for our attention and to be lost in our digital world right now where, you know I don't know whether I would have come up with some of my best ideas were made free smartphones.

00:55:47:18 - 00:56:16:15
Speaker 1
You know, when you know my best ideas, you know, I was, you know, instead of taking my phone to the bathroom, you know, I'm thinking, yeah, you not playing a game or scrolling through, looking at everybody else's artwork or something like that, like there's so much to distract us these days. And I don't think I know I wouldn't be where I am today if I had not been.

00:56:16:17 - 00:56:35:17
Speaker 1
I mean, I had so much on my plate and so many. I'm glad for the response. But then I was when I was in school, I had I was married and had two kids with my our third on the way. By the time I when I graduate, I, I and I consider those that my family a great blessing and I wouldn't change anything.

00:56:35:17 - 00:56:52:02
Speaker 1
But that also made me go, I've kind of worked my butt off like, I've got to do this. I've nobody else in my program had the same responsibilities and felt the same urgency to work hard and and a lot of them did not continue in art.

00:56:52:04 - 00:56:53:14
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:56:53:16 - 00:57:22:01
Speaker 1
Or at least not in what they wanted. You know, they were being trained and we all had our ambitions to do what we were going to be doing. I was fortunate to go and do what I had been trained to do, you know, extremely competitive market. But I like it. I have I can't I can't count how many young people I've tried to mentor who like, they'll be sitting in my office, I'll give them an assignment and I'll sorry, that's my that's fact.

00:57:22:01 - 00:57:57:15
Speaker 1
My robot telling me to get to work. I you know, who will, you know, be checking their phone like every couple of minutes, you know, because something dings. Yeah. And it's like we, you know, if, if those things, those things are a distraction for everybody. Yeah. All people no matter what age. But man, that's going to be real hard for kids too young people or anybody who's wanting to if they're wanting to make this change in their career and they can't handle that type of stuff, like that's it's going to be a real challenge, really.

00:57:57:15 - 00:58:15:20
Speaker 1
I just think to myself, I don't know what I would have done if I had been if I had been starting my career during that time. I know I wouldn't have some of my favorite ideas, some of the story ideas, some of the world ideas, things that I've come up with that I've either made already or I'm waiting to make.

00:58:15:22 - 00:58:42:18
Speaker 1
They wouldn't exist. I'm in a time like I wouldn't have come across them, you know, in a time like right now when I didn't just allow myself the time to just sit and think, you know, when I'm driving ideas, You know, when I was driving 15 years ago on a long trip, I didn't have my AirPods in my in my ears listening to an audio book.

00:58:42:18 - 00:59:07:00
Speaker 1
I was thinking, and then I drive by something. I go, my goodness. I'm thinking of a very specific example. I remember the moment it happened. I saw something and I was like, my goodness, That would actually smoking bones literally would not exist. Sorry. The smoking bones. This is a world I'm working on. That's the collaboration, the series of games I'm making with Stoneware Games and all this artwork back here and a book I've worked on.

00:59:07:04 - 00:59:38:14
Speaker 1
It would not exist in this time when there's so many distractions because it took me noticing things. Yeah. And not being distracted to have that inspiration. And so I see that. And it's a that definitely sounds like a dad thing, but it is. It's something that is a challenge and, and people working to get it started in these careers, like they, they've got to really check that and make sure that they have that under control in order to make it work.

00:59:38:16 - 01:00:09:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, I love that. I love it. You're mentioning and just having that attention and noticing and like Jerry Seinfeld is an example of that. I recently read one of his books and he was talking about like how, you know, visual acuity and just being in the moment and, you know, from just noticing one thing you can it can lead to a unique solution to, you know, an artistic problem that you have or or just in you need to be present with.

01:00:09:04 - 01:00:11:16
Speaker 2
You can't you can't be distracted.

01:00:11:18 - 01:00:32:03
Speaker 1
Well, it's so funny. I teased my daughter. She's a wonderful person and works really, really hard. But and all of my kids have done this. I mean, post-COVID, I think this is what everybody's doing and doing certainly before then, too. But they've met kids and mastered this is I'm doing my homework and watching YouTube at the exact same time here.

01:00:32:04 - 01:00:56:18
Speaker 1
And they seem to think that that will actually and maybe something has changed in brains and in some of these newer generations that they can handle this because they've been doing it for so long. But I go it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Like how in the world can you be doing your homework and watching something else on YouTube and actually be getting the best that you could possibly have in one or the other?

01:00:56:18 - 01:01:18:02
Speaker 1
I mean, really go all in on your YouTube watching or go all in on your homework. But, you know, I know I can't do it with my work. Like, there's some things I have to like. There's some things I can do if I'm in the middle of a painting and I'm just noodling away at a painting, I can watch a movie, I can have a movie going on, one that I've seen before, so I don't need to watch it anymore.

01:01:18:02 - 01:01:39:05
Speaker 1
I just like to have it going on in the background, or I can have an audio book going on at that same time because I'm just painting. But if I'm coming up with ideas, if I'm if I'm trying to have a creative solution to a client, I definitely any card, any artwork I'm making, if I'm in the sketch phase, I have to turn everything off so I can think.

01:01:39:07 - 01:02:04:18
Speaker 1
But if I'm really thinking about big ideas, I can't have anything distractions on. I want to have that deep, you know, that deep. And I keep looking. I have a book that I haven't I haven't read fully, but called Deep Work Cal Newport And it's this concept like we just we're not as good at getting work, you know, getting the best work, the best stuff, the most creative stuff.

01:02:04:20 - 01:02:31:01
Speaker 1
These days when we're when we're distracted so easily. So anyway, sorry, it's my daughter about this. And she doesn't she, you know, she listens sometimes and, and, but, but we, we just I feel sad for all the possible things, ideas and creative things that are lost because of that stuff that could have been. But it will not be because of it.

01:02:31:03 - 01:02:57:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I don't want to keep you from your work. I heard your robot, so thank you so much. It was. It was amazing hearing about your process and about, you know, the art worlds and. Yeah, thank you for taking the time and thank you for your amazing art in all games, including Rise of Babel, you know?

01:02:57:22 - 01:02:58:23
Speaker 1
Thank you.

01:02:59:00 - 01:03:02:03
Speaker 2
I really, really want to thank you.

01:03:02:03 - 01:03:15:20
Speaker 1
It's been a pleasure to work with.