36: Finding Your Board Game's Superfans with Ori Kagan

Ori Kagan is the creative force behind Kagan Productions, a renowned agency specializing in high-quality animated trailers for board games. With a proven track record of helping campaigns raise over $19 million, Ori collaborates with both established publishers and first-time creators to bring their tabletop games to life with captivating storytelling and marketing expertise.


Main Kagan Productions website: https://kaganproductions.com/
Kickstarter Health Scorecard: https://ori-y8ghfgfd.scoreapp.com/
Kagan Duckademy Waitlist sign up: https://kaganproductions.com/lp-kagan-duckademy/

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:19:23
Speaker 1
I'm starting to, like, convince myself to get this. And, you know, I might just go ahead and just back it in that level and then try to think about it later if I want to regret it. I try to convince myself, but it definitely works. This is definitely worth and this is what I think all campaign pages strive to do.

00:00:20:01 - 00:00:23:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. You're not trying to force me to buy it.

00:00:23:11 - 00:00:24:03
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:00:24:05 - 00:00:36:12
Speaker 1
But you're giving me the option and you're really showing the value. There.

00:00:36:14 - 00:01:03:06
Speaker 2
So just to introduce you to the podcast is typically aimed at game designers. But as you know, a lot of times game designers also become game publishers. And I think you what you're doing is quite focused on, you know, getting a successful game, publishing a game marketing. You've made some amazing, amazing looking trailers for Kickstarters and you've worked with some huge companies.

00:01:03:08 - 00:01:10:01
Speaker 2
Could you tell me how you how you started as, in this industry, in boardgames?

00:01:10:18 - 00:01:37:15
Speaker 1
wow. Well, you know, board games have been in my life forever. One of the things that I think many of us sort of went through this journey through with the basics, you know, the the curtains and the monopolies and then having that epiphany of, my God, it's a whole new world. Look at all these games. And it's sort of, you know, I always wanted to be a filmmaker.

00:01:37:17 - 00:02:02:09
Speaker 1
I've always, like created Star Wars fan films in the backyard and dabbled with effects and stuff like that and also realizing, I could actually do this as my job, and then sort of having reality slap me in the face where, this industry actually is very unforgiving. You know, day jobs working as an editor were a nightmare.

00:02:02:14 - 00:02:24:15
Speaker 1
Anything that was TV related in Israel especially was very, very difficult, very low paid, only one in a million chance for you to break through and do anything cool. And honestly, I just wanted to create like cool stuff. I wanted to do stuff that I used that I imagine in my indie games and boardgames and things like that.

00:02:24:17 - 00:02:48:05
Speaker 1
And one day I'm like really eternally thankful for this day in a weird way, where I was at my lowest and the day job, I asked my boss to to leave early to take care of my kids who were my kid who was sick at the time. And they sort of said, well, what's going to be your next excuse?

00:02:48:07 - 00:03:25:00
Speaker 1
And it was like that. That moment was like a wake up call. I'm like, okay, I cannot let anyone treat me like this. I rage quit my job basically, and started freelancing as as an editor or after effects artist for odd jobs around Israel and having that space of suddenly like this rediscover myself and rediscovered my passions. And, you know, looking at my my, my Star Wars action figures and my collection of board games, I was like, Let's find a way to make something fun.

00:03:25:01 - 00:03:53:07
Speaker 1
And I've been at that time backing Kickstarter is here and there, and it's sort of there was an opportunity be like, let's, let's let's see if we can make some trailers. And it just started with one job that I did practically for fun, almost for free, just to do something cool again and then slowly realizing that there's a market and there's a need and there's a want, and people will actually pay me to do this.

00:03:53:09 - 00:04:28:00
Speaker 1
And I remember that day, it was during COVID. Well, compared to many other people I've had the opposite happen to me during COVID where I had too much work because both my freelancing clients in Israel wanted tons of videos about COVID, about, you know, regulations and things like that. I was working with a lot of universities and and like a governmental institutes and at the same time, board games suddenly had a boom during COVID.

00:04:28:02 - 00:04:49:12
Speaker 1
And I knew I had to make a decision, Do I go all into something that's riskier and just focusing on board games, or do I say where it's safe? And I always know I'll have work and being freelance and I turn on my phone and I fired all my freelancing clients one after the other. I just said, Don't send me any more work.

00:04:49:12 - 00:04:56:19
Speaker 1
And I doubled down on board games, built Cagan productions, and ever since then, this is what I've been doing.

00:04:56:21 - 00:05:32:08
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's it's really cool. I mean, that's a very cool story and it's great that, that you were able to have the like I guess self I appreciate yourself enough to you know when your boss told you what's your next excuse to leave because that sounds like an awful, awful place to be in. But also you've made and it's it's it's kind of similar to to how I sort of like made this my job.

00:05:32:08 - 00:05:57:22
Speaker 2
It was also during COVID for me when I wrote a post on board game geek that I'd be willing to play to other people's games for a fee. And and I had made a couple of like prototypes at the time and had won a prototype competition. So I kind of wrote award winning designer, which it was true. It was a local award.

00:05:57:22 - 00:06:31:15
Speaker 2
I think there were six other participants. But yeah, it's, it's during COVID and it is I think that's part of the like one of the blessings of having a smaller industry is that service goods services are very useful. And there's a lot of people looking to like how they can do it. And it also it's it's a market of people who have this, as most people have this as a hobby, who have this like dream, and you're helping them, you know, make this dream better.

00:06:31:17 - 00:06:59:09
Speaker 2
But also, I think I think it's people's Achilles heel is where you are helping them out with. I feel like people really struggle with marketing. They struggle with making things look good. And I think I've got the other Achilles heel, which is game development. But but could you tell me, what is, what's the biggest mistake people make when they decide they're going to do crowdfunding?

00:06:59:09 - 00:07:05:05
Speaker 2
What's something you've seen many times and could be.

00:07:05:07 - 00:07:35:09
Speaker 1
I'm so glad you asked this. And you really I mean, you've really raised a point there with the Achilles heels. It's I don't know if you got that impression when we met during Yuki, but I am a total introvert. Yeah, a very hard time with in spaces with a lot of people. After a long conversation along social events, I feel completely deflated.

00:07:35:11 - 00:08:10:08
Speaker 1
Any time I feel like I should be talking about myself, I find myself changing the conversation to the other person so I don't have to talk about myself. So doing this right now is is a challenge for me. But the funny thing is that I noticed that this is something very common with creative people, that they have this whole like world that they live in, and that's where they thrive and their safe space and and that's why they find comfort in board games, because board games do create that safe, self safe space where you're you're essentially playing a different character.

00:08:10:10 - 00:08:34:02
Speaker 1
You're playing with people that you trust. And to go into like high conflict scenarios but in a safe space. And it's a way to express ourselves, especially when we're creating a game, you know, how pure is that? And so many of these creators decide that they want to take it the whole way and with crowdfunding, it is possible.

00:08:34:04 - 00:09:00:03
Speaker 1
They finish the game, they playtest it, everything's fine, everything's wonderful. Everyone loves the game. And then they get to that point when they need to deal with the terrible, terrible world at word marketing. How do I start selling my game? How do I start posting about it? I don't want to feel icky about it. It's just like I feel like a used car salesman.

00:09:00:03 - 00:09:20:12
Speaker 1
I if they just played the game, they would fall in love with it. I've seen this happen over and over again. Why can it be simple? And this is something I felt about my service in a way, You know, I thought I'll just put my videos on a website and people will come. I mean, that's that's how it works.

00:09:20:13 - 00:09:53:05
Speaker 1
And the truth is that we live in a world where information, we are bombarded with information all day, every day, with the phones in our in our pockets, with the media and the news and a word of mouth and everything. It's very, very hard to pay attention to one single thing. And that's the main challenge. New creators are having is is literally the battle for attention.

00:09:53:07 - 00:10:14:16
Speaker 1
Because what they believed in that that sense that if they only played the game, they would they would buy it. It is true. That's not the challenge. The game is already good. You've spent so much time, blood, sweat and tears to bring the game to this point. There is a reason you've done it. There is something really true and pure and special here.

00:10:14:18 - 00:10:57:12
Speaker 1
It's that next step of literally getting someone to be patient enough to understand what's in this game. And that's that's the major challenge. And understanding this challenge is the first step. So what I've discovered, you know, I've, I've done over over 200, I think, campaigns. I've been a part of, okay, I've done the videos, I've never actually ran a campaign, but I've been part of the journey on all these Kickstarter campaigns and game plan, of course, and I've I've been on I've had some clients which failed, you know, the clients that the campaign just didn't take off completely flopped.

00:10:57:17 - 00:11:17:17
Speaker 1
It had an amazing video. No one blamed the video for the failure. It was always something else. And that was very upsetting to me. It's like, why? Why are people seeing this? This is such an amazing game. I mean, look at those pieces. Look at those components, Look at the theme. And I discovered I wanted to figure out how to solve that problem.

00:11:17:19 - 00:11:43:18
Speaker 1
And I just dove into a rabbit hole of of learning more about marketing, about branding, brand strategy, storytelling tactics, which helped not only my own business, but also to understand what actually makes a crowdfunding campaign work in a marketing campaign work. And I was actually surprised by how pure it actually is and how similar it is to what I do when I make my videos.

00:11:43:19 - 00:12:04:00
Speaker 1
They're essentially telling a story and they're trying to tell it in a way that conveyed and it conveys the core of what makes the game special. And I started thinking, what if I incorporate to my service? Not just I'll do a video, but I want you to help. I want to help the creator tell the story of the game.

00:12:04:01 - 00:12:33:08
Speaker 1
I will use that voice and I'll put it on the video, so make sure the video is the most effective. But I want to also be able to let them understand their own game and how to talk about it and how to tell the right story to the right person. That's the core of what it is and I've started this process over a year ago, a year and a half ago, ever since I started this workshop before starting to work on the video, every client does a workshop before we start the production 100% success.

00:12:33:10 - 00:12:59:01
Speaker 1
It was like a major shift, and in the beginning I thought it was a coincidence. But then I worked on a little game called I Have a Right You're Behind Me, bought me by Dustin and Amy from Ducks Omnium and for them, what I loved about working with them that they were really receptive to to this process and really dove into what makes our game special.

00:12:59:01 - 00:13:26:01
Speaker 1
It's a game about collecting flowers and Victorian era England. You're you're all these are rich people that are kind of bored with their lives so they go around the globe finding rare flowers and destroying the competition, maybe losing a limb along the way. It's very crazy and wacky and beautiful. It's a beautiful, beautiful game and they originally wanted to market it to bored gamers.

00:13:26:01 - 00:13:55:09
Speaker 1
You know, it's a board game, you know, we should have ads on BGT. We should have like the major YouTube channels, marketing it and reviewing it and previewing it. And once we did the workshop together, well, they had an epiphany that the game isn't actually for bored gamers. They had a different superfan. They're super fan or actually flower lovers that have this sort of guilty pleasure with Victorian era times.

00:13:55:09 - 00:14:22:10
Speaker 1
They love Bridgerton, they love Downton Abbey. And this shift shifted their entire strategy. All the money they were ready to spend on influencer in the board gaming space went to influence. So influencers and the botany, space, garden garden lovers and all these different channels. And all of a sudden, instead of being in a highly competitive arena with other board games they must compete with, there was no competition.

00:14:22:11 - 00:14:52:14
Speaker 1
They were literally the only board game in their space and the result was, you know, they hoped for 80,000 in their campaign. Overall, 100,000. It was like the best case scenario. They hit that by lunchtime on the first day and it just completely exploded. And they all eve they made over $1,000,000, 50,000 backers, and they their their brand is now growing and they have an army of because we called it we give the superfan also a name.

00:14:52:14 - 00:15:13:01
Speaker 1
We wanted to make it into an actual living, breathing person. So we called them Mary. Obviously it could be male and female, but for this time we won out because we're marketing to people. So they now have an army of Mary's. They've adopted this name. They'll defend the scheme if anyone tries to come against it because it's like, this is our game.

00:15:13:01 - 00:15:25:02
Speaker 1
They have ownership over it and it's it's beautiful seeing all this connection connections coming up and these people sharing, you know, cosplaying while playing the game. This is what games are about, is it?

00:15:25:04 - 00:15:54:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. For sure, sure. That's something that I think about very often. Like I went when I started getting into just playing board games again, that would have been like 2017 probably. I had played as a kid but then had like 10 to 12 years where I didn't play anything. And I remember then like the market was so different and that's just like, what is it, seven years ago or something?

00:15:54:04 - 00:16:15:16
Speaker 2
Like when a video came out, I would get like genuinely very excited and, and now I feel very desensitized to, you know, like reviews, previews and all of that in the board game industry. So it's really interesting how you're going for for new people. My worry with something like that would be how do you get those those same people?

00:16:15:18 - 00:16:33:11
Speaker 2
I mean, presumably to go on a crowdfunding campaign, you know, that's a lot of new steps that they need to take. They need to make an account and, you know, do something that they haven't done before. And is that difficult or did that prove to be difficult?

00:16:33:12 - 00:17:02:02
Speaker 1
Well, difficult. Let me answer the question this way. This is 100% true. It is part of the journey You need to take them. And I've seen a lot of creators try to like, tap into new audiences and non-gamers and things like that. I feel like as long as that's part of the journey leading up to the Kickstarter, that can be easily overcome.

00:17:02:04 - 00:17:27:03
Speaker 1
But we look at those things. We when we map together the super fan avatar we call it, we're trying to look at what are the challenges for getting this person to back. We know what they like, we know what they hate, and now we need to focus on on really those challenges, the things that will cause someone to say, I want this, and at the last moment say maybe not.

00:17:27:05 - 00:18:05:04
Speaker 1
What are the things that will keep someone on the fence? Okay, So for Mary, again, as an example, one of those challenges was Kickstarter in general, the concept of crowdfunding wasn't necessarily known to them, so they added into their newsletters. New to Kickstarter, Click here and we'll walk you through it. I don't remember exactly what they did, but what I recommend is just film a video video of you giving a tutorial of how to sign on to Kickstarter, create an account, and what the steps they'll have to do to back the game.

00:18:05:10 - 00:18:20:01
Speaker 1
It's that simple. It make it as easy as possible for them and that should be. I think everyone should do that regardless of their game because you never know which backer you're missing out on just because they're surprised that Kickstarter isn't a store.

00:18:20:03 - 00:18:53:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Supposedly when we first met, you had me fill in your Kickstarter scorecard, which I recommend to anyone who wants to run a crowdfunding campaign. And in that scorecard, you, you know, you filled in a lot of information and in return, you got back to you get back advice and you get back this chain of emails that tell you, you know, what you should look out for, give you some great advice, it seems like.

00:18:53:17 - 00:19:27:14
Speaker 2
And one piece of that advice that stuck in my head is about casting a wide net and people thinking that the, you know, we need to get it to as many people as possible. But what you see is that's not necessarily the case because you need people who are going to commit to become becoming super fans and super funds are actually much more valuable than people who see your ad and presumably scroll by.

00:19:27:16 - 00:19:42:21
Speaker 2
I'd like to talk a little bit more about how to cast that net, which is going to get the right people. What are the different tools you use?

00:19:42:23 - 00:20:06:14
Speaker 1
So thank you for mentioning the scorecard. Just a few words about that. The original concept for that was, first of all, I've learned about this wonderful tool called the Scorecard, which the whole idea around it is to have a questionnaire that just doesn't just, you know, give you like, you should do this or do you do that or something like that.

00:20:06:16 - 00:20:38:19
Speaker 1
I really wanted to create a questionnaire that well within the questions themselves, make your make the gears of your head start turning. It's like literally asking the question, Have you integrated all your social platforms and your landing page and your Kickstarter page? Have you sort of integrated them together where your Facebook group would lead to the newsletter and the newsletter would lead to the discord, and the discord would lead back to the Facebook group, and all of them would lead back to the Kickstarter pre-launch page.

00:20:38:21 - 00:21:05:03
Speaker 1
Have you even considered of doing that? And just having that question gets someone to think, How should I be doing this? And at the end, when you fill out the form, do not only get a score of how ready you are to launch, but you get a tailor made report based on your answers of actionable steps you could be doing right now to improve your score.

00:21:05:03 - 00:21:28:18
Speaker 1
And what I called to de-risk are Kickstarter and one of these. So first of all, that that was that, you know, I just wanted to create this as a tool. Then I realized I could take it a step further and to, if you're interested, invite you into this, into our newsletter, which we give weekly tips, which eventually also leads to to a bigger offer.

00:21:28:18 - 00:21:53:16
Speaker 1
But we'll we'll talk about that later. Now, to answer your question then, the narrow that the wide net. Well, imagine three circles like a target. There is the center circle, the middle circle and the bigger circle. Each one is a different type of audience. In the middle, we have the super fans in the middle middle, the small circle of super fans.

00:21:53:16 - 00:22:21:08
Speaker 1
The second bigger circle is casual fans. And the bigger, bigger circle is general audience. The super fans are literally the ones that you will need the least amount of effort to convert. They just need to really know about your product like we talked before and that's it. They say, Shut up, take my money and they buy it. Casual fans are interesting because they have one thing they're passionate about that aligns with your product, like a Venn diagram.

00:22:21:10 - 00:22:43:10
Speaker 1
So through that passion, they might be converted to wanting to play your game. An example for me, I'm very, very passionate about Dune. I loved you and I love the new movies. I love the books. I read the book every year and then Simon released this huge miniature games for Dune. I don't play heavy miniature games. I don't have time for them.

00:22:43:10 - 00:23:02:15
Speaker 1
I usually don't have the budget to buy them, but through the Passion of Do and I was like, I got to own it and know I cannot resist owning something like this. I'm holding up like the big sand war miniature, which I always keep on my on my desk. So that was an example for me, you know, being able to convert to that.

00:23:02:15 - 00:23:22:00
Speaker 1
But if I was a miniature lover and the Dune fan, I mean, that's a no brainer. I'll get it without even thinking, without even looking at how much it is and getting the all in are the general audiences. They're very interesting because that's the most amount of people, but they're the hardest to convert because they're reasons they buy.

00:23:22:00 - 00:23:33:00
Speaker 1
You can't necessarily always understand why they buy your product. Maybe they like the cover, maybe they like the theme, maybe just they thought it would be interesting.

00:23:33:02 - 00:23:35:17
Speaker 2
So they think a relative will like it.

00:23:35:18 - 00:23:56:12
Speaker 1
Maybe they're going to buy it as a gift. Yeah. So now imagine that this is an actual target and I'm going to give you arrows to shoot at this target. So what would you rather to do? You try to fill up the target entirely from top to bottom. Well, in that case, you might miss the target entirely or run out of arrows.

00:23:56:14 - 00:24:21:11
Speaker 1
On the other hand, if you try to aim for the center every single time, well, two things will happen. One is you can be very consistent and you can improve your aim from arrow to Arrow two. The more you hit the center circle, there is a magical thing that happens. The center circle grows and it starts sucking in the other circles inside.

00:24:21:12 - 00:24:41:19
Speaker 1
And this might sound weird, but this is what actually happens when you're speaking to one type of person. That ultimate super fan, the one that just really needs to know it causes everyone else to get excited because they're like, What is it they would be? They get curious. I was like, Is this like a club that I want to be a part of?

00:24:41:19 - 00:25:01:12
Speaker 1
Is this There's a lot of excitement. I mean, take the merry, for example, that they're taking all these photos and people are like, What is this game? Why are they so excited about this game? I got to know more. Never know. You might become a mary. Now, the other thing that happens is you talk about ads and running ads and ad spend.

00:25:01:14 - 00:25:25:16
Speaker 1
Everything becomes cheaper for you. Okay? Because buying, getting, not buying leads, but the cost per clicks becomes cheaper because they're more effective. You don't need to, like, shoot like a shotgun everywhere, hoping you'll hit something, spending more and more and more money. And then a few things happen. First of all, you don't get enough leads or you get leads and they don't convert because they're not qualified.

00:25:25:18 - 00:25:32:03
Speaker 1
And also your ads start becoming tired because the algorithm sees that, it's not working.

00:25:32:03 - 00:25:33:04
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:25:33:06 - 00:25:57:16
Speaker 1
And it starts, you know, pushing it down. On the other hand, if suddenly you get a very high percentage of conversion rate, the click through rate is amazing. Matta will start pushing your ad further and further and further and it becomes more and more effective. And then you can raise the ad spend while keeping the same amount of return of advertisement.

00:25:57:18 - 00:26:02:06
Speaker 1
So it just seems logical to me, and I've seen this happen over and over again.

00:26:02:08 - 00:26:21:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And that that ripple effect is really interesting. You mentioned with like when you convert super fans because those are the people that are going to comment. Like one example for me is with Rise of Double, which is launching as we speak, probably by the time this is is up, it's already going to be up and like by the way.

00:26:21:03 - 00:26:38:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, but I remember some of those first people who played it at a convention when it was still a prototype with prototype art. One of the like the best moments for me was we had we had one group that just loved the game so much and they asked to purchase the prototype and tell them, No, I'm not going to sell you the prototype.

00:26:38:21 - 00:27:10:10
Speaker 2
Finished. And but it was just a nice feeling. But then after that, they, like, they started following everything and they would come everywhere. And even today I posted a picture of one picture was the first year at the convention with them and then it was the second year. Same people at the same convention like a year apart. And it's so cool to, you know, when you get people in and they said again, come they weren't planning on coming to the convention but when they saw the game is here, there again, they came for it.

00:27:10:12 - 00:27:23:17
Speaker 2
And it's those people that on Facebook when when they come. And so, you know, we're definitely getting this game. We've played this game, we love it, and so on or on social media. I'm kind of old school. I use Facebook. You know.

00:27:23:19 - 00:27:50:21
Speaker 1
If you don't don't underestimate Facebook. Facebook is very, very powerful. Again, it really depends on the type of game. But I really love what you said and this is really important when you get the super fans on your side and they become the best form of marketing you can have. I mean, my business, the only reason it thrived was word of mouth.

00:27:50:23 - 00:28:17:22
Speaker 1
It is something that is a it's the purest form of marketing, I think, because it's genuine and it's human. It's not like an ad, it's not like even a video or anything like that. It's literally a person giving their honest experience and recommendation. And usually they do this to people they trust. Yeah. And when you hear from a trusted source, source, that's like the best for marketing.

00:28:18:00 - 00:28:42:15
Speaker 1
And like, like the story you just told me, I've heard that dozens of times. Yeah. One of my favorite ones was like, very similar to what you said where this publisher had their game at a convention. This guy called Tom comes to them and they're like, What is this? And they quickly explained the game and then they go, Can I buy this?

00:28:42:17 - 00:29:05:05
Speaker 1
And they're like, Well, it's going to be up for sale. No, no, no, please, I need to have this prototype. Please, please, please let me buy it. And they said, Yes. Compared to you, they actually said yes. The next week a video pops up where Tom shares their reaction to the game and they start just raving about it and how they played it.

00:29:05:05 - 00:29:29:03
Speaker 1
And it was it was a has to do a lot of with also the indie stuff. So, you know, they incorporate it into their game and roleplaying and stuff like that. And, and people were like Ian, like, where is this? Where can I follow? And this one guy created such a ripple effect which the publisher saw The next day, a spike in their followers, which are all also becoming super fans eventually.

00:29:29:03 - 00:29:40:11
Speaker 1
Long story short, he hired Tom to be his marketing manager, which is like literally, you know, the ultimate marketing person you can hope for.

00:29:40:13 - 00:30:23:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. No, but that's an amazing story. Yeah, about just looking at my notes here, you've got one thing that I found very useful again in your following year. The Kickstarter scorecard was the Kickstarter launch timeline that you have. Could you give like a brief overview of what that is for people? And sort of because that's a question that I think all people are I've been asked so many times, like how long does it take to make a game?

00:30:23:18 - 00:30:39:22
Speaker 2
Is the why like sort of question, but how long does it take to get a campaign page ready? And what are what are those steps and what do you not want to forget? And all of that.

00:30:40:00 - 00:31:08:08
Speaker 1
So in all honesty, this this document we created, I'm going to say we because I created it together with Joe Slack and Dana Ramsey, just like it's a it's a winning game. Designer Dena Ramsey has her amazing marketing service. Dena said so and it was like a point where we were trying to figure out really how to help game publishers in a way where they de-risk their campaign.

00:31:08:10 - 00:31:35:02
Speaker 1
And this was one of the things we created together. We put our brains together and we try to figure out like, I'm like this document. And it's important to state that nothing here is like a hard set rule. It's like the pirate code. I mean, it's it's you can follow it, but you don't have to. But it definitely could give you a framework of a checklist of what you should be aware of, what you shouldn't forget.

00:31:35:04 - 00:32:02:06
Speaker 1
I've had clients, which it really is. I can understand how it happens. They get to like the 95% before launch and they drop the ball at the last moment. They don't they don't check their numbers. They don't have their ads lined up. They don't have the different tracking links. And there's just so many things. I don't want to get into everything right here, but sometimes it just helps to have something that will help you keep accountability.

00:32:02:08 - 00:32:27:14
Speaker 1
But you need to remember to keep it flexible and remember what is good for your game. It also really depends on why you're even doing this. And that's I think that's something we should have talked about. Not every publisher wants to, you know, start a whole business and actually live off it because by publishing games, that is a very difficult world from to go down.

00:32:27:17 - 00:32:49:21
Speaker 1
A lot of my clients will be like, I just want a creative outlet. I have a job, I have a day job, it pays well. I'm doing this together with my my partner or my friends or just myself as a creative outlet. I just want people to play my game. It'll work out. That's great. If not, not so.

00:32:49:23 - 00:33:16:17
Speaker 1
I always make sure to ask like, what is your actual goal? What is your best result that you can hope for? What's a realistic one? And setting those expectations beforehand will help you prepare for how much you should be investing both how much money and most importantly, how much time. Because time is the only piece of currency we cannot get more of.

00:33:16:19 - 00:33:48:21
Speaker 1
So you need to make sure that you know how you spend your time leading up to this campaign. So to answer your question, like the timeline starts like six months before launch, like that's the amount of time you need to start your marketing. The true answer is you should start marketing now. So you know, all you need is, I think and I just talked about this recently and a really put up, you only need the cover of the box to start marketing your game earnestly because that is essentially the product.

00:33:48:23 - 00:34:07:10
Speaker 1
And when you show people this is the product I'm going to sell, and then you just talk about it and use a lot of words, even if you don't have any other assets left, that is a good place to start. Another place to start is with play testing. Every time. Like I said, I played just the game. The guy who's when I want to buy this now, well, did he get their info?

00:34:07:10 - 00:34:29:11
Speaker 1
Did he write it down? Did it capture their you know, did you ask them for their email so you can keep them updated? That is marketing. Not only it's marketing, it's the best form of marketing so far. Game like Rise of Babble. Yes, that's what I would recommend. At least six months. I've seen games do a whole year of marketing before launching.

00:34:29:13 - 00:34:55:01
Speaker 1
If your game is much smaller, well, you should try to realign according to what that is, because if it's a small investment, it would be a little strange for a super fan to be following for half a year. It's just a small deck of cards, so it just doesn't feel it doesn't feel right. So it definitely should be flexible according to the story you're trying to tell.

00:34:55:03 - 00:35:15:12
Speaker 2
What else can you do before the campaign? Let's let's start with that. What can you do before the campaign other than just, you know, showing the cover? What are other things you can show? Ask people, where do you go, Who do you who and how do you talk about your game?

00:35:15:14 - 00:35:41:22
Speaker 1
So obviously, there's tons of things we can talk about, but let's let's sort of try to break it down in a very easy to consume way. There is two types of marketing that I see that really work for tabletop gaming, and that is organic marketing and obviously organic marketing and paid marketing and both are very, very important. Organic is the one that will cost you time.

00:35:42:00 - 00:36:11:15
Speaker 1
You need to be posting about it on social media. You go to conventions, you play the game online, offline, you put together a landing page and you know, just for anyone who asks, you have somewhere to send them. You ask for advice about your game. Okay. To get you know, you're trying to decide between two pieces of artwork or you aren't sure about something.

00:36:11:15 - 00:36:42:06
Speaker 1
So that's a perfect way to start engaging with the community who love knowing what's happening behind the scenes. But it will also someday, you know, show their interests and what I call hand razor posts. So it's like if you're you want people to come on board, you're like, anyone is interested in being in my VA VIP group or in a circle that will actually have influence or know when things are happening.

00:36:42:08 - 00:37:02:00
Speaker 1
And it's like just finding these super fans, finding where they're hanging out. Are they hanging out me on Instagram? Or maybe they're only on Instagram because it's a very visual game and you want to share a lot of the graphics and the art, or is it more a conversational type game where you want to talk a lot about it in that maybe Facebook?

00:37:02:02 - 00:37:42:07
Speaker 1
Or is it something where you would rather go on Discord and have the live chats with people? So do all that. That takes a lot of time and a lot of a lot of putting yourself out there, which is a little difficult for creators like we talked. The other side is the paid ads using meta and this is important to do even before you launch a campaign to sort of see what works and get data, get clues, you start a B testing, you try different audiences, you try different formats, you see where which ad and don't spend a lot of money.

00:37:42:09 - 00:37:58:09
Speaker 1
Just start testing out the waters, Getting leads, getting emails was also important, but also see what works and what doesn't. So by the time you launch, you have all you need to know to know where to pull your ad spend and really where to push it. Does that make sense?

00:37:58:14 - 00:38:11:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, that totally makes sense. Totally makes sense. And then what about getting your games into the hands of reviewers, pre viewers, people who already have their own audiences?

00:38:11:07 - 00:38:44:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. So that that is also vital for every, every tabletop game, I think because we're such an oversaturated market, a game that goes without any reviews or previews, that's immediately a red flag. So I would caution against overdoing it with audio, with our reviews and previews. I mean, when you see like some campaigns have like 15, 10 to 15 previews and reviews, I think at a certain point it's just like, okay, we got it.

00:38:44:06 - 00:38:45:21
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:38:45:23 - 00:39:17:09
Speaker 1
And I guess it goes back to what we said with quantity. Sometimes it's finding the right review were or preview were or your game and not having the one with the most audiences. So really, you know, if you follow them and you engage with their content and you resonate with them and you feel like it's a good fit for your game, that's when not only when you reach out, the reviewer will or the influencer will be excited about covering your game because it is a type of game they love to cover.

00:39:17:11 - 00:39:23:18
Speaker 1
They will also probably be very positive about it because it fits their repertoire, so to speak.

00:39:23:22 - 00:39:29:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's that's a good best case scenario if you can if you can make a reviewer your super fan, that is, you know.

00:39:29:21 - 00:39:53:01
Speaker 1
Yes, yes, 100%. And you know, I would recommend contacting them way earlier than when you're ready. Okay. Getting to know them, they'll get to know you, you know, being very transparent and honest and and friendly Like, I love your content. We're working on a game I really want one day in the future and just strike up the conversation.

00:39:53:01 - 00:40:26:05
Speaker 1
So once you're ready to send that email, it's not a cold call. Yeah, you know, and this is something I've learned from my sales process. It's so much easier when you have a an introduction through. Someone else could be through meeting that person in person in a convention and then following up. I mean, the fact that we're having this conversation is thanks to us, meeting in person and, you know, just not having that first cold call of, Hey, I have a game, Can you review it, please?

00:40:26:11 - 00:40:28:08
Speaker 2
Can you please do something for me?

00:40:28:10 - 00:40:29:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, Yes.

00:40:29:21 - 00:40:44:10
Speaker 2
Well, also, it doesn't even need to be. I think a lot of people might feel like you said icky about it because they feel like, that's going to be disingenuous because I've got this long term plan of, you know, I'm going to become you know, I'm going to talk to this person and then later, it doesn't need to be that you.

00:40:44:11 - 00:41:05:05
Speaker 2
I mean, there's so many people like me now having a couple of years behind my back in the board game industry. I'm always happy to like talk to somebody who's new to it. I'm always happy to recommend where they where they go and recommend other people because I'm not losing anything, you know, from that or that's that's something I'm happy to do.

00:41:05:05 - 00:41:35:19
Speaker 2
I feel like most people in this industry would be happy if you reach out to, you know, at least have a look at, you know, whatever you're doing or just talk to you or maybe a few if you're interested. Their thing, which is, you know, hey, how did you get this very successful Kickstarter? How did you, you know, just asking asking them about how they did it when you're going to learn something because they have a lot more experience than they've been able to do whatever it is.

00:41:35:21 - 00:42:04:14
Speaker 2
But also, you know, you're going to have, you know, start that conversation and start, you know, I've got many friendships now that have started with me interviewing somebody on this podcast or or, you know, I several times with clients that I've had who came to me and asked me to play something for them. And then later we sort of ended up developing a game together or, you know, even publishing a game together.

00:42:04:14 - 00:42:08:08
Speaker 2
In 99, Ninja, which was published last year, Sweet Little.

00:42:08:08 - 00:42:09:20
Speaker 1
Game. I have it right here. Yeah.

00:42:10:01 - 00:42:31:04
Speaker 2
So that that was Matt was one of my first clients. He had reached out with a game that I really liked. I did a blind test for it and what we do is like I record myself just reading the rules and playing the game. And I remember after that complimenting him on how good his rules were. And we started that conversation.

00:42:31:04 - 00:42:56:21
Speaker 2
And I think I've told the story many times on here, but I'll quickly let to tell it again. Is he he decided he's taking nine months off work to do bird game design full time. It was his dream. And I said, Well, I'm also, as you know, interested in doing this full time and I'm doing it full time currently and having somebody else who who's fully invested for nine months I think would be great.

00:42:56:21 - 00:43:12:02
Speaker 2
And we ended up we've designed several games together since then. But yeah, just starting starting with, with a conversation or with, with something like that, I don't think you need to feel icky about it.

00:43:12:04 - 00:43:38:04
Speaker 1
Could you see that's, that's one of the that's the thing I love about this industry. I feel like there is sort of this common understanding that rising tide lifts all boats. Right? That's the that's the term. It's like everybody is helping each other. Everybody will always you should talk to and, you know, do an introduction. I don't feel like anyone has like a cutthroat competition here.

00:43:38:06 - 00:44:25:06
Speaker 1
We all essentially want this industry to grow because we are, you know, if we look at it from top to you of like the whole industry, we have a major battle against huge, huge industries of video game and and and movies and TV shows. It's like our industry is tiny as a fraction compared to that and everything that we're doing, you know, new designers, new publishers, crowdfunding people, taking chances, everything grows this industry and brings in more gamers into the circle and really, I mean, I've said this multiple times, which is it's strange to say, okay, because, you know, it's it's games.

00:44:25:06 - 00:45:04:14
Speaker 1
But I honestly believe that games are saving lives in a way. I feel like everybody has a story of a game memory or moment of or a connection that was, you know, you just told a story like that yourself that literally changed our lives because of that moment, because of that game, because of that experience. I've been doing it in Israel by donating games to displaced families and and, you know, just seeing their kids, like, light up with joy and like laughing around the table in these difficult times, it's been, you know, really life changing in a way.

00:45:04:14 - 00:45:16:01
Speaker 1
So I honestly believe that there is a mission to bring more games to more people and to make those connections and like bring these amazing magical experiences to the world.

00:45:16:05 - 00:45:50:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. And also, like you said, those safe spaces where people can let go of a lot of their, like social anxiety and and just have an experience with other people, social experience. We also do something similar. We organize every year, a game jam, you know, smaller city near near where we live for it's this youth center and it's usually like, you know, people from from kids from harder backgrounds and who have lots of difficulties.

00:45:50:17 - 00:46:14:09
Speaker 2
And it's so cool because we do it's, I think it's about a ten hour thing. We go in the morning, we tell them what a game jam is and, you know, they're how they can we split them up into teams and we have them each each team needs to have a game by the end of the day and it's, it's, it's very collaborative.

00:46:14:09 - 00:46:45:13
Speaker 2
It's always super positive. And it's you know, they're playing together, they're making something together. Everybody has a game, you know, depending some are, you know, more fun than others. But but none of them are super fun because it's only a couple of hours that you spent with, right? Yeah, But but yeah, definitely there's there's I think games in general are very beneficial and also it just it's very useful to to have that.

00:46:45:15 - 00:47:09:16
Speaker 2
You know, I think the spirit of gaming is that spirit of it's okay for me to lose sometimes and and also just you know the euro gamers, you know, trying to optimize and find solutions. And I think that's that's really useful as well. It's yeah, you learn a lot of great skills in a in a very safe space.

00:47:09:18 - 00:47:29:21
Speaker 1
Yeah it's you know I have my son is seven now and at a certain point he turns to me and is like then I want to make a game. I don't want you to do the video for me. okay. And we've been for the past year, you know, designing a game. It's it's very similar to what you said.

00:47:29:21 - 00:47:49:15
Speaker 1
It started like a very basic concept. What if there were cats and dinosaurs playing hide and seek? But just the experience of of working with him on it is is amazing. I've see I'm seeing all these things come up. I mean, he came back from school one day and he told me my best friend is now part of the team.

00:47:49:17 - 00:48:10:19
Speaker 1
Okay, so I want to have a Zoom call with him this afternoon. I'm like, what? Okay. And they literally had a Zoom call and he was saying, okay, you need to start thinking about this and I'll do work. And that his friend didn't even know what it was like. Can I go back to play now? It's so funny to see.

00:48:10:21 - 00:48:19:12
Speaker 1
So I can only imagine. I mean, who knows for those kids that you did the game jam for, who knows will grow one day and be an actual game designer?

00:48:19:17 - 00:48:22:20
Speaker 2
Could be. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely.

00:48:22:22 - 00:48:23:20
Speaker 1
Ready for it.

00:48:23:22 - 00:48:40:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. And you also get my other favorite thing is that conventions when there's people who don't play games, they recently had a very interesting experience. Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a convention showing Rise of People and there was a group that there were just locals. It was at a small village was where the convention was.

00:48:40:14 - 00:49:02:11
Speaker 2
So, you know, lots of locals showed up just to see what's going on. And this group of like people maybe in their early thirties showed up and they were like, what's going on here? And I'm like, I'm showing this game. And I'm like, Do you want me to teach you how to play? And one of them said, I don't play games.

00:49:02:13 - 00:49:25:04
Speaker 2
I ride like I ride a motorcycle. You know, those two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but it was great because then he did sit down at that group, sat down, and I taught them the game. And the thing that we tried to do with the rise of battle, which I think which I'm really proud of, is and it's a question we get very often is, you know, why are you launching a base game with an expansion?

00:49:25:06 - 00:49:51:00
Speaker 2
Why don't you, you know, you have this content made, why isn't it in the same box? And it's because in that base game we've streamlined it a lot just so that people like that who are new to board gaming can still pick it up. I think it's a the base game is probably like Gateway Plus is where you put it.

00:49:51:02 - 00:50:14:16
Speaker 2
So it's like much lighter weight. But then we also play a lot more like heavier games. And so we wanted all that other content that we had thought of to split that apart and have that also be a part of it. But it's awesome to see when somebody who's not into boardgames plays a game and then a couple of turns and you can see like the wheels turning in their heads and like, I'm going to do this, to do that.

00:50:14:16 - 00:50:17:21
Speaker 2
And yeah.

00:50:17:23 - 00:50:41:23
Speaker 1
It's I love it when games sort of sneak in that, that strategy. They don't, they don't demand you burn your brain on them and it sort of suddenly you're making that connections and you're rewarded by feeling really smart. And I figured it out. It's like it's it's a classic show. Don't tell. I always tell my clients, never tell your clients.

00:50:41:23 - 00:51:02:09
Speaker 1
This game is like you took this and that and mushed them together or combined or this game is like this. Don't explain that. Just show that and let them make that connection. That's so it's also true with the game itself and also with marketing. You know, if you can make your audience feel smart by figuring it out, by making that connection.

00:51:03:06 - 00:51:36:06
Speaker 1
so this game is basically this meets that and then you go, Exactly. You're like, I got to play this now. I love this idea. And it's definitely felt through your I mean, I just watch the video and scroll through the campaign page. It surprised me how you know, that cover. It reminds me a lot of heavy, heavy, heavy hero games that you can imagine, like take up the entire table and you quickly alleviated that that challenge in a way.

00:51:36:06 - 00:51:55:22
Speaker 1
Because, you know, now let's pretend I am a super fan, potential super fan. I love playing these like thinking games, but I cannot go too far into your own territory. That's just too much for me. And I looked at the car and like, no, heavy euro. And then I watch the video. I'm like, this is actually that's all you do.

00:51:56:00 - 00:52:11:17
Speaker 1
I mean, that sounds interesting. Let me read more into it. And I was like, diving in. I was writing more. Okay, so you're building the pyramid, you're making the connections the dolphins go for is you build that up low, you have these special abilities. I this is actually really cool. And now I'm taking it to the next step.

00:52:11:19 - 00:52:27:09
Speaker 1
Who will I be playing this with? So the first one is my wife. You know, I play games with my wife. I like. First of all, we love the theme. Okay? I love the story of Tower of Babel. Big fan of it. I it's one of the things that fascinated me. That's an automatic win. And I don't want to scare off.

00:52:27:09 - 00:52:46:17
Speaker 1
I'm like, if I can explain this game to her the same way you explained it to me, that means we can get through that first game, which is the biggest barrier. And the only that I see there's it's like it's rewarding you and it slowly, slowly builds up. As you build up the tower, you're getting more and more options.

00:52:46:17 - 00:53:12:11
Speaker 1
So it's not intimidating on the floor and you're nodding as this is all true. I'm totally guessing here. And the beautiful art, it's just fascinating. And then I scrolled it down further like, so there's expansions. That is great that that adds that extra layer of complexity. I, I, you know, I love playing the core game until I'm tired of it and then adding in a layer of an expansion.

00:53:12:11 - 00:53:13:20
Speaker 1
So I'll be able to do this.

00:53:14:00 - 00:53:23:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's actually what I'm hoping for because I know a lot of people buy everything and then they put everything together immediately. I actually I hope that people go that way.

00:53:23:21 - 00:53:49:12
Speaker 1
It's you can instruct them to do that in the rule book. You should tell them don't add these in get first play. I mean one that some of my favorite games are the games my management and Harrow County, which I did the videos for, for after page games. And those games literally tell you start with the basic version of the game and slowly add more and more and and more stuff because starting at the end is impossible.

00:53:49:14 - 00:54:09:21
Speaker 1
And then you learn how to build your strategy. You learn how to and then it's it's it's fresh every time. And I just want to say one more thing about your campaign. I knew a deluxe version was coming. You sort of hinted it and I'm scrolling down, I'm scrolling down. This looks good. I love the components, I love the art.

00:54:09:23 - 00:54:28:12
Speaker 1
I'm like, Where? Where is the deluxe? And then you hit me with the legendary box, and I literally did a double take. I saw, like, the tiny video. I saw the way it looks like the table presents that the acrylic elephants? No, the wooden elephants are acrylic.

00:54:28:14 - 00:54:32:17
Speaker 2
Acrylic elephants. And. And the tiles are acrylic. They're like from a tile.

00:54:32:17 - 00:54:56:14
Speaker 1
And the tiles. And I was gobsmacked. And the first thing I thought was, is there a reason I shouldn't be getting this? Because I already decided that I really, really want this. I am imagining this on my table and now I'm trying to find excuses to not get this. And that's the point where we mentioned before the challenges.

00:54:56:16 - 00:55:19:12
Speaker 1
So that's a very steep price. Okay, I live in Israel. Well, maybe there is a solution. Maybe I just pick it up in a convention. I'm starting to like convince myself to get this. And, you know, I might just go ahead and just pack it in that level and then try to think about it later. If I want to regret it, I try to convince myself, but it definitely works.

00:55:19:17 - 00:55:32:16
Speaker 1
This is definitely worth and this is what I think all campaign pages strive to do. Yeah. You're not trying to force me to buy it. Yeah, but you're giving me the option and you're really showing the value there.

00:55:32:18 - 00:55:57:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. And, and like I said, the the second reason for us splitting it, the expansions is again it's, it's actually the same reason six accessibility. But one is rules accessibility like the best game you can teach. I don't know if you can teach it to your mum, but you can teach it to, to your little brother. You. But then also there's the just accessibility of, of, of the price point.

00:55:57:18 - 00:56:10:22
Speaker 2
Like if you we wanted that little price point and it's also really useful if you want to get into like big stores like Walmart Target it's very difficult to do with a game that's more than $50.

00:56:11:00 - 00:56:26:11
Speaker 1
100% and that gives also the excuse of why to even back the Kickstarter, not to rate to wait to retail. Now just want notice something interesting as I was talking trying to think if I want to get the legendary box, I've already backed the base game regardless.

00:56:26:17 - 00:56:27:00
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:56:27:05 - 00:56:41:04
Speaker 1
So it's like it's not that I don't have that conversation anymore. I've back the game. That's it. Does it? Am I going to upgrade? I mean, that's a different conversation. But you know that, that, that feels like the right story telling the right story to the right person.

00:56:41:06 - 00:56:58:05
Speaker 2
Like, yeah, yeah, for sure. And it's I think it's nice to to give those options and it is something that I don't know I guess that's like a marketing thing as well, you know, kind of having those levels that are near each other. It's like if I've already bought the base game, then I might as well, you know, add in the expansion.

00:56:58:05 - 00:57:23:14
Speaker 2
But if I've already bought the expansion, I remember one of my early episodes on the podcast was with Anna and Lisa, who they had this great Kickstarter campaign and it was board game adjacent. I'd say they had a during COVID, they designed 12 different envelope mystery puzzles that you get them in the mail. They were able to do like really cheap shipping from what I remember.

00:57:23:16 - 00:57:48:01
Speaker 2
And they were also really good mechanically like they were for old. I played the first couple of them then and I remember just really enjoying the puzzle of it, and it's the type of game you're going to play it. You'll finish it in an hour or two and then you'll give it away to somebody else. But I remember they told me their lowest pledge was for one envelope and it was like 20 CAD, I think.

00:57:48:03 - 00:58:07:07
Speaker 2
But then their highest pledge was, you know, you get one every month. And it was I think it was $200 for 12 envelopes. And I remember them saying the reason that they did it and they they ran a I don't know if they still do it, but they run a marketing service and like social media and all that.

00:58:07:09 - 00:58:25:07
Speaker 2
And they said the reason we put the highest price point in there was so that the $20 looks a lot less. Right? You know, like, you know, if I'm going to spend 200, I may as well just spend 20. But what happened was the opposite with Kickstarter crowds, they all went for the $200 total of envelopes.

00:58:25:09 - 00:58:53:13
Speaker 1
I am not surprised at all. Yeah, that's the again, I'm going to call it a tactic, but that makes it sound sleazy. It is a reframing things, okay. It's called price anchoring and it's a very well known thing in in sales. And it's it's just important. It's just like I again, I'm a filmmaker, I think like films. I think like movies.

00:58:53:15 - 00:59:19:07
Speaker 1
You do an establishing shot. Yeah. Okay. You have two ways of doing it. If there's someone drinking at the bar and you want to establish this, there's two ways of doing it. And both of them have different intentions. If you want to do, I don't know, like a like comedian sitcom or something like that. Then the first shot is external bar, internal person at the bar drinking come in situation.

00:59:19:09 - 00:59:37:23
Speaker 1
You want to create a noir or something mysterious or something tension. You start with a shot of a hyper closeup of the glass and a hand holding the glass, and you linger on that shot and you started now with a completely different vibe and intention.

00:59:38:00 - 00:59:39:23
Speaker 2
And you've got all these questions that immediately pop.

00:59:40:01 - 00:59:41:08
Speaker 1
All these questions.

00:59:41:10 - 00:59:42:17
Speaker 2
Whose hand of.

00:59:42:19 - 00:59:43:09
Speaker 1
God were.

00:59:43:11 - 00:59:44:12
Speaker 2
Drinking, You know.

00:59:44:15 - 01:00:08:16
Speaker 1
What's happening? So the same goes with with a crisis, in a way, you're like setting the stage of what will be this experience of getting an envelope every week. How much is that worth to say? If you're just wanting this as a one off, then it's a $20 experience and you're like, okay, that makes sense. You know, I'm trying to think about other things that I've been spending $20 on.

01:00:08:16 - 01:00:16:17
Speaker 1
And yeah, that's that sounds like a fun night. You know, maybe go into a restaurant. Yeah, but if you want this and every what do you say it's every month.

01:00:16:17 - 01:00:16:22
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:00:16:22 - 01:00:28:05
Speaker 1
For 12 months, every month that you're going to have a whole year of these experiences and that anticipation and that way it sounds $200 sounds like a no brainer.

01:00:28:07 - 01:00:32:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, and it was because the gameplay was so good as well.

01:00:32:03 - 01:00:52:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, it was. So it's not cheating. That's it. There's nothing sleazy. You're actually telling the truth. But if you just said, this is a game where you get 12 envelopes, you don't get them a one time, you get them in 12 months and it's going to cost you $200. Now, how does that sound? It just it doesn't sound right.

01:00:52:12 - 01:01:00:18
Speaker 1
It's just like something is wrong. I mean, why did we start a scene with a lot of drama and tension? But you basically revealed everything to me.

01:01:00:20 - 01:01:01:15
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:01:01:17 - 01:01:07:18
Speaker 1
That's it. That's the art of storytelling. You need to know how to tell the story to create the right emotion, the right effect.

01:01:07:20 - 01:01:17:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's awesome. I can almost always also see, like for how you're gamifying the marketing as well.

01:01:17:07 - 01:01:37:17
Speaker 1
And in a way gamifying is a whole different. I'm actually I don't see myself as gamifying it. I see it as as storytelling it in a way I don't know how to call it. It's it's just, just finding another way of telling a story. The everything that you do is telling a story. Every ad, it has its own story.

01:01:37:17 - 01:01:59:02
Speaker 1
The campaign page, as you scroll down, like I said before, has its own story. The video obviously is telling a story of the game itself. You know, and when I say story, it's once upon a time. It's it's like it's that journey that you go on from seeing that first impression to the point where you need to make decision to the point where you're rewarded from that decision.

01:01:59:04 - 01:02:21:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. And also just noticing those stories, I think, and sharing them like you talked about, I think it was in one of your short reels about how people want to see a person behind it. Like you don't want to hide all of your like, you know, odd things and like things where you know, you're not correct and stuff like that.

01:02:21:23 - 01:02:56:10
Speaker 2
But also I think now lots of times I'm like, this is a story. I immediately I catch it. And also one of my hobbies is I also do stand up. It's very similar, like sometimes you're like, this is a bit this is a joke. But like recently, just a couple of days ago, we did a we did an online tournament for Rise of Bubble and the winner at the end said, I want to split the because we had a there was a monetary reward and the legendary bucks and he said I want to split the monetary reward with the second and third place because they played so well.

01:02:56:10 - 01:03:07:17
Speaker 2
And I'm like, that is a story. I don't know if we're going to share it in some way, but it's so nice to see, hey, you know what the audience of this game is? There are the types of people who win something and then they want to share it with the rest of the people. You.

01:03:07:17 - 01:03:11:00
Speaker 1
Amazing. Amazing. I love that.

01:03:11:02 - 01:03:12:14
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:03:12:16 - 01:03:39:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's it's I mean, look, it it sort of reflects what gaming is. This is something that all different marketing firms are any type of that. I say they keep saying this like the king. The thing that is king now is personal branding, which is if you had to guess which Twitter account or X account has more followers, Apple or Tim Cook.

01:03:39:20 - 01:03:41:01
Speaker 2
If I had to guess.

01:03:41:03 - 01:03:49:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, Apple. So you're wrong. Let me just bring it bring up the numbers.

01:03:49:15 - 01:03:54:00
Speaker 2
That's what I thought it would be. Because. Because the way you feel.

01:03:54:02 - 01:04:28:08
Speaker 1
So Tim Cook has 14.5 million followers and Apple has let me say Apple has only a 9.7 million followers. So it's it's quite a range because people want to follow people. People want to connect to to you know, they don't they don't want to connect to brands. They want to connect to the people behind them or to actually see the person.

01:04:28:13 - 01:04:54:18
Speaker 1
The strongest brands today are personal brands, I think. And with the board game industry, this is even more important because more games are inherently like social activities, even solo board games, because even if you're playing a game by yourself, you know that there's a whole community of players that went through that same experience. And you can sort of share that even if you don't go to forms that you just know.

01:04:54:23 - 01:05:18:22
Speaker 1
A lot of people went through this thing or you're having that conversation with the creator every time I play Final Girl, I'm thinking about how did they do this? They made such an amazing experience. And so it's all social conversations with, actual living, breathing human beings. So when you're marketing your game, do not hide behind your box. Do not hide behind the brand that you're creating.

01:05:19:00 - 01:05:53:19
Speaker 1
Remember that there's always remind your followers that there's people behind it and that they're actually making human decisions. And that also comes what I was talking about is showing your flaws. Don't try to be perfect all the time. We all know Kickstarter is, and crowdfunding in general is difficult. There's all the time things that happen that that are challenging us with the production and delivering the game's transparency and owning your flaws and art and just communicating that will always benefit you.

01:05:53:21 - 01:06:23:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah. And also just finding the courage because I do think that it takes some courage for you to share like, Hey, this is me and I'm doing this. I know it took me years to be able to do that because there's, there's definitely something, you know, where you're like, I'm doing this. But like, very often you'll see somebody like maybe in their bio or something, they'll write, I'm an aspiring artist, you know, or something like it's like, No, you're an artist, you know, you're I think,

01:06:23:16 - 01:06:48:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, let me tell you a story about that. Yeah. When I put together my website and my about section and it's not, it's not right now on the website, but it's an old one. I was told by my dad, family love. I showed it to them and he said, no, you should write a leading animations studio. Okay.

01:06:48:22 - 01:07:10:05
Speaker 1
Today, I don't remember that exact thing. I was like, What? What do you mean leading? I just started. I'm not leading anything. I'm not. What are you even talking about? Is like trust. Just just put it there. And it was it was sort of I put it there and then I felt like I was obligated, obligated to own up to it and be like, If this is what I'm promising, this is what I'll need to deliver.

01:07:10:07 - 01:07:53:10
Speaker 1
And honestly, until today, I don't. I Imposter syndrome is raging in me all the time and I've grown to accept that it won't go away. And just sort of if I'm not seeing clues and an actual red flags in reality not within myself, then I need to just ignore that and continue. And I mean, I've been just posting roles just for the past week that has been terribly difficult for someone that is always super perfectionist with, with, with my videos every video, I will not show it to the client unless I'm absolutely certain that it works for me.

01:07:53:12 - 01:08:15:02
Speaker 1
Every pixel, every every moment, every beat, and suddenly putting up those reels, which I just, you know, someone asked me, the one I did today, I did it just literally. You've done that in your car? Yes, I stopped. I had an idea. I was just waiting in my car. I back home from boarding the kids in school and the air conditioning was just so nice.

01:08:15:02 - 01:08:40:16
Speaker 1
I did not want to step outside. I opened up social media. I saw this post about, you know, imperfect, just not being perfect with your marketing and showing vulnerability now, like, that's a great idea I should talk about that. And I felt myself right there and then and posted it. It felt terrifying to do it, but I just did it and I know it's hard.

01:08:40:17 - 01:08:42:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's that's what you get to do.

01:08:42:15 - 01:09:03:05
Speaker 2
You don't you don't also need to be an outgoing personality or even change your personality in any way. Like it's better you to just go whatever your personality is. Like a good example, I think. And the beauty of ministry has changed a lot. Like, you know, you used to not even have names of designers on covers. It used to be just a product.

01:09:03:05 - 01:09:22:18
Speaker 2
And you wouldn't, you wouldn't ever. I mean, most people also that play games, they they're not going to ask you about who published and who the designer is. The story that I heard, which may or may not be true, is that one of the one of the early essence spiel conventions, some of the best bird game designers of the time, you know, got together after to socialize.

01:09:22:18 - 01:09:51:21
Speaker 2
And I think it was just at a at a bar. And they were talking they were talking about how they don't get their names on covers. Well, you know, like book covers always have the name of the writer and movies also have, you know, directed by and screenplay by and so on. And they signed a napkin on which it said on which they said, we won't sign a contract with a publisher unless there's something about our name being on the cover.

01:09:51:23 - 01:10:37:18
Speaker 2
And that's changed so much. Like right now, the smaller or the indie publishers, you know, you know, like a great example I see behind you, you've got Ezra in the Himalaya, like Sam Phillips and Sam MacDonald there. Sam isn't an outgoing character like I've talked with him many times. We're we're friends with Sam and seven and he's a very or at least from what I've seen of him, you know, he's he's very conscious of what he says and he's you know, I don't think of him as this outgoing, you know, eccentric extrovert, you know, But he's also putting himself there.

01:10:37:18 - 01:11:04:00
Speaker 2
And I think he's made a name for himself where, you know, that the games he puts out are good games. And. Yeah. Or Jamie's stigma as well. You know, again, it's a name, I think many people know his name, maybe even more than they know. Stone Mire. So yeah, I think yeah.

01:11:04:02 - 01:11:30:14
Speaker 1
And you mentioned like the big name, what's considered like the big names in our industry. The truth is that even smaller games will have all goes back to the superfans. They will be fans of this person. And and you got to remember, there's so many people in the world. There's just so many people. You never know where you're going to find an audience.

01:11:30:14 - 01:12:00:06
Speaker 1
Where are you going to find people that will discover something special and will become your fans? In a way, one of the craziest for me still. I still can't believe that happened in Ukg experience that happened to me. I was walking through the lobby of my hotel after the like the convention. People always playing games there and I see two guys playing a game that I did the video on a set of watch by Rock Manor games, and I go and I mention, enjoying it?

01:12:00:07 - 01:12:19:10
Speaker 1
Or like, Yeah, it's pretty fun. I guess. I made the trailer for that. I really enjoyed working on it and one of them just stares at me and is like, Wait, yeah. So you're Audrey Burridge? Kagan of Kagan Productions. my God, I'm a huge fan of yours. I mean, I've backed so many of games just because of your videos.

01:12:19:12 - 01:12:37:17
Speaker 1
And I love it. I mean, and he's telling you this friend and I was just like, What the heck is happening here with this? This does not this doesn't happen to me. Who am I? And then they invited me to play with them and they're like, my God, we can't believe we're he's playing with us. And this was like a completely surreal experience.

01:12:37:17 - 01:13:02:12
Speaker 1
I was just like, What is even going on here? And I guess that's that's something, you know, you need to accept that this is something that can happen in a way. They are my super fans in a way. Again, it's it's you can hear it my voice. It's weird for me to talk about it. Yeah. Because I don't feel like I deserve that in a way.

01:13:02:12 - 01:13:31:10
Speaker 1
But you know, everyone's saying, or just there of, you know, it's like my dad saying to say you're the leading person. And it's. Yeah. So I think every designer, whether you're selling the game out to publishers, signing on for publishers, are doing crowdfunding. You're always you should be prepared to be present for that. Opportunities for those connections.

01:13:31:12 - 01:13:52:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, totally. All right. To finish up, there's a question I always ask our guests, and that's what is a piece of advice you'd give to somebody in your case, somebody who wants to run a crowdfunding campaign. What's the most important single piece of advice?

01:13:52:06 - 01:14:11:10
Speaker 1
Okay, so I want I don't know if this is the single piece of like best. I don't believe in that. I think there's just the right advice for the right moment that usually comes out of asking questions. But this is something I think everyone can do. I've been doing it myself and talking about it now reminds me I should be checking it again.

01:14:11:12 - 01:14:53:18
Speaker 1
And that is the following exercise. Open your emails, start a new email with the address to you and time it for next three months and then write an email to yourself in three months from now and state all the things that you think or your hoped happened by this point. Okay. Everything that you want to achieve, you know, all the goals that you've covered or your mind state at that point and then send it, then copy that email.

01:14:53:20 - 01:15:14:04
Speaker 1
Either it's like the sticky notes, right, that Windows have that has those sticky notes pasted into of those sticky notes and have it permanently on your desktop to read every single day, like every single day free. Read that email at a certain point, you're probably forget about it because that's hard. But I you know, I just said that, you know, I pulled it up again.

01:15:14:06 - 01:15:32:01
Speaker 1
But at a certain point you will get that email sent back to you and then you're like, you'll have that accountability, self accountability. And it's that combination of rereading it every single day and getting to that point where you won't be by how much you achieved within those three months. Yeah.

01:15:32:03 - 01:15:56:02
Speaker 2
Also just that's, that's a great piece of advice, by the way. And I've, I've sent a couple of emails to myself before, so it's, it's something I have tried. But I think a big part of this to me is just writing that out is going to make things so much clearer for you, even, you know, just that single step of I'm writing this out and these are the specific things that I.

01:15:56:02 - 01:16:02:14
Speaker 1
Want to get to. Don't, don't reveal that very well.

01:16:02:16 - 01:16:07:02
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for for spending the time with me. It was great talking to you.

01:16:07:04 - 01:16:24:23
Speaker 1
If there's if there's one last thing I can sort of mention again, it's like it's strange. We talked about sales and all that, and it's still strange to me to do this. But there is a program I'm actually planning on launching soon and I wonder if it's okay if I can sort of mention it here.

01:16:25:04 - 01:16:27:03
Speaker 2
Of course, as much as you want.

01:16:27:05 - 01:16:54:02
Speaker 1
One of the frustrations from seeing seeing some of my clients fail when they clearly could have succeeded if they only had some sort of system of accountability, something something sort of like a community, a support group that would lead them in the crucial months before launching, are always upset that there isn't something like that and I decided just to go ahead and crated.

01:16:54:04 - 01:17:36:12
Speaker 1
And I'll be launching a program called the Kagan Academy. I imagine you'll have my logo so people will understand. And the idea is to do like 12 weeks where we will go through my entire marketing framework, the one I've been using for all my clients. But in a price point where you don't have to hire me for a video to get that, and basically having this community, it's just going to be small, limited to like 30 people, a small community of like minded people going through the same experience together with this sort of support group where I'll teach you what you should be doing now, how to find your voice, how to find your selling

01:17:36:12 - 01:17:54:04
Speaker 1
points, how to find your superfan, and actually being accountable on that. And I'm going to bring in, like experts, two expert speakers. I'm planning a lot of fun stuff and I would love for people to join us and really go through this experience and create amazing games.

01:17:54:06 - 01:18:00:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, fantastic. That's great. And people can find out more at Cagan Productions that come.

01:18:00:13 - 01:18:01:03
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:18:01:05 - 01:18:05:04
Speaker 2
Also your Kickstarter scorecard is something I can easily recommend.

01:18:05:06 - 01:18:07:23
Speaker 1
And I'll give you the link to that as well.

01:18:08:00 - 01:18:12:16
Speaker 2
All of the links will be in the description. Thank you so much Again.

01:18:12:18 - 01:18:27:11
Speaker 1
Thank you so much, Ivan. It was really fun.